First drive and help needed on various issues

[yuza]

I have ordered a vin badge replica in netherlands, here is not illegal as long as the car has a proper title and is registered in the DOT (mine is, with just the serial number)
I used the following info to rebuild the right vin
1979
4.2L engine
Wide track (body style 17)
Manual 4 gears
Plus the serial number

Anyway, I think I have a flange between engine and trasmission, but I am sure trans is a T176 from its serial number.
Also I just replaced the clutch and it is a 11” one while 4.0 engine should fit a 10-3/8 which makes me assume the flywheel is from the 4.2

I’ll take pictures of it as well

[yuza]

Alright I managed to find some interesting things...

1) the casting number on the block (driver side) is 53008405, which means it is a 4.0 (241ci, or 3.875cc) 1991-1993, hence (theroretically) 190hp
Found here: https://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f8/iden ... e-1383352/

1bis) there is another number, on passenger side, just below the head gasket on a flat machined surface, as far as I can read it is 407MX07

2) casting number of the intake manifold is 3227135.4 (D and N capital letters below). No idea what this means

3) the carter on the front of the engine (guess it contains the chain to camshaft) has the numbers 53020221A02 and 59315

4) there is a kind of flange (very thin, might be 5mm) between engine block and bellhousing

I assume this was installed to match the 4.0 with the T176 transmission. I have a question on this: my starter makes a bad grinding noise and I have read somewhere that in case of swapping a 4.0 with a 4.2 trasmission it is mandatory to keep the 4.2 starter.

I have already ordered a refurbished starter from rockauto for 50 bucks, for the 4.2, how do I know whether this fits or not? Or if the one installed is from the 4.0, and maybe this is the reason why it doesn't work fine?

Thanks guys, lot of great help!

[tgreese]

1) Casting number only refers to the block casting.

1b) That's the build date code. Look here - http://cruiser54.com/?p=129

2) Intake manifold is not going to tell you much, since it likely came from the original engine. The casting number is not the part number. Your pictures look like a '77-80 cast iron original equipment 258 manifold. Not special.

3) Not relevant - not a Jeep number.

4) The thin metal plate is on all of them, and fits all the AMC engines. Not part of the change to 4.0L. You understand that a 4.0L mostly bolts-in for a 258? Very few changes needed, especially if the 4.0L fuel injection is not being used.

There are part manuals at http://www.oljeep.com Look up the starter part numbers and compare. Or look on RockAuto and see if they sell the same part for a '79 and a '94 Cherokee. You should be able to do that.

[yuza]

1b) thanks, this means a 4.0L made on july 1994 in my case. But if block, head, valve cover, exhaust manifold are all from a 4.0 I would assume it was a full engine swap, and not a mix of parts from both engines, right?

4) I do, but I have also read some adaptation is needed when using a 258 bellhousing instead of the 4.0 original one, eg relocation of the CPS:

viewtopic.php?t=5323

I guess this is needed if the EFI is kept, not with carb

I have compared flywheels' and starters' part numbers on rockauto and indeed they are different between 4.0 and 4.2. I would just need to understand what type my starter is (it has no visible serial number, the sticker has gone...)

[tgreese]

Yep complete engine swap; the intake manifold and carburetor are almost certainly from the original 258 engine.

Crank position sensor (CPS) is not used with a carburetor. You can modify the 258 bell housing to accept the CPS, or there are kits that move the CPS to the front of the engine.

Can't help much with the starter. I know that the flywheels are both balanced the same and either will work with the engine, but no info on starter compatibility. There is a "swapology" forum here - https://www.jeepstrokers.com/forum/ - possible you could ask there, or there may be helpful info in old posts there.

[yuza]

Thanks, very good source

Indeed it seems that the ring gear on 4.0 flywheels is closer to the engine block, resulting in misalingment with the starter pinion from a 4.2 and viceversa. Bottom line, starter and flywheel need to be from the same engine
Since I shall have the bellhousing and flywheel from the 4.2, the starter I need is for a 4.2. Good, I didn't waste money on the wrong part!

Now a new doubt: do I have a stroker? If I understood well, matching the case/crankshaft from a 4.2 with block from a 4.0 (plus some other mods of course) would result in having a 4.5. I guess I need to look for casting number on the crankcase and see what engine it is from, right?

[tgreese]

Yes, you can make a 4.5L stroker with a 4.2L crank and a 4.0L block. If the stroker was made with your original 1979/1980 crankshaft, it would have 12 counterweights which you could see by removing the engine oil pan. Here is some information about crankshafts https://www.jeepstrokers.com/forum/view ... ?f=34&t=51

Possible someone on the JeepStrokers forum could tell you a sneaky way how to determine if the engine has been stroked, without taking it apart.

[Longjohn61]

I have the temp sensor from a 258 in the back of the head of the 4.0L engine and then your
stock gauge Will work.
Mine is a 1980 wiht a NP 208 but not the t176 i have instead a t4 not the best but mine is still good.
I also have the fuel injection so fuel consumption is ok
Fuel prices in sweden are almost 2$/L

/Nils

[yuza]

Thanks Nils
Here gasoline is 1.7€/l but this is a weekend car for me so I am not too much concerned
Btw I have no idea of mileage, I just drove it fom the workshop that installed the new clutch to a garage and the fuel gauge is dead! Lol
I am waiting for a temp sensor for the 258 from RockAuto, good to know it fits in the head of the 4.0L

[yuza]

Instrument cluster reinstalled after some refurbishment (resoldering of all pins and addition of a ground wire. Also tested all gauges and they work fine)
Fuel gauge is now working, temp and oil not yet since I am still struggling with the sending units
I understood that the temp sending unit of the 4.0 has a much higher resistance than the one from the 4.2 so despite connected it will not move the needle. A new unit is on the way
As per the oil pressure I haven’t yet understood how to address it. There is a pressure switch now with 2 wires which I guess is acting on the choke system
Shall I use a T connector and install both switch and sending unit in the same point?

[tgreese]

If the block has a threaded hole in the same location as the 258 block, you could put it there. A tee fitting at the existing sensor would also work.

Trace the wires from the existing sensor to understand what it's doing.

[yuza]

I tried to but wires disappear into the corrugated plastic pipe.
One is probably going to the carburetor (btw I couldn't identify it yet. Seems similar to BBD) to a solenoid (not sure it is, it is the cilinder you see in below picture. Is this for fast idle? It is not there in the carb diagram I have) and it is a red wire, the other one (red as well) I do not know

The choke system on he left side gets a red/white wire

I find it very difficult to check what each wire does, since they are all mixed in colors between replaced engine and original harness

[yuza]

Edit: it is actually a solenoid for fast idle, but it should be there only paired with automatic transmission...?!
Standard BBD should have a different fast idle system
What a gremlin...!

[tgreese]

I tried to but wires disappear into the corrugated plastic pipe.

You are being too timid. The pipe (wire loom) is split so you can take the wires out of the loom and inspect or trace them or whatever. Designed to be opened and looked at.

You also should own and use a multimeter to test continuity in wires. Does not need to be fancy or expensive - this one is a good value, though there may be other better options in Italy. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072JMBLJS/?c ... _lig_dp_it

It is very difficult to analyze electrical issues without the car in front of you. Trace the wires by eye or meter. Read the original wiring diagram and one for the engine donor. Take one circuit at a time. Take notes, make a drawing, be systematic.

Realize this is probably a 1980 Cherokee, not a 1979. Some things will be different. The fuel delivery and exhaust systems change a lot from year to year in this era, mostly due to evolving emissions standards. 1980 was a year of major changes for the Wagoneer and Cherokee, including new transmissions and transfer cases. A lot changes between 1979 and 1980.

Throttle solenoid is not always for fast idle. Jeep also used them to allow the throttle plates to close completely at shut-down, preventing run-on ("dieseling").

[yuza]

Thanks tgreese, you are helping sooo much!
I have a multimeter and I know how to use it, at least for basics
I will do what you suggest and go throught the wiring one circuit at a time, hopefully over next weekend

Meanwhile, I am googling to find diagram of '93-'94 cherokee with 4.0 engine (not sure mine is from a cherokee, but from casting number it is from '94..) and from what I found the oil pressure switch seems connected together with a sender and going into the cluster. Not much sense to me...

the nearest gas station around me

I understood the oil pressure switch in my case shall be connected to either the electric choke or to the solenoid (based on wire color to the latter, but I will check of course), meaning I totally miss a oil pressure sender for the gauge. I will look for a tee split to have them both in the same location

[tgreese]

One way to deal with this is get both the replacement oil pressure sender and choke switch from RockAuto or wherever and throw away what you have. Disregard what the '94 Cherokee diagram says and change whatever is there to copy the '79 or '80 Cherokee diagram.

Casting number and date code are two different things. The casting number is only for the engine block casting, before it is machined to make the finished engine. The dates associated with the use of a particular block casting probably are a guess, so don't worry that your date code is '93 and some web site says that block is from 1994. Close enough, and the casting number is not ambiguous.

The date code is stamped into the engine block when the factory completes the engine assembly. It will be within a day or two of when the completed Jeep rolled off the assembly line. I suspect you know this, and just used the wrong wording in your post.

Look on the block for a threaded plug where the original oil pressure sensor would have been on the 258. If it's there, remove the plug and put your oil pressure sensor there. If not, you will need to use a tee fitting.

[Longjohn61]

i can put upp some pics of my electrics from car i use the stock wires to both temp and oil gauges and more.
i am sure the are in your car as well but it takes a lot of time to find them all.
When i bought my car the only thing that worked was the speedo.
all the coulors are in the manual.

/Niels

[yuza]

While waiting for new temp and oil pressure sending units from Rockauto (long story short: the parcel was stuck in customs for inspections for the last 2 weeks, now seems ready to be delivered...), I am considering fixing my exhaust system

I would need to replace the entire system except the headers but I have a doubt: given I am running a 4.0 engine with (I assume) the stock headers, will an exhaust kit for the 258 match with the shape and position of the flange at the end of the headers?

Does anybody have experience with this?

[tgreese]

No, extremely unlikely. The 4.0L header is different from the 258 exhaust manifold, and there is no reason to assume it will fit. The 4.0L exhaust manifold will not fit the 258 engine, and vice-versa. And, the 4.0L was never offered in the Cherokee/Wagoneer.

In the USA, you'd likely go to your local muffler shop and have them build a complete new system for you. When I needed a new exhaust system for my J10, I had it made locally. You might ask Italian collectors of American cars where they would go to have an exhaust system built.

[yuza]

This is what I did as a first step, but the guy at the muffler shop (who was installing new mufflers on a Bronco) asked for 800-900€, which is huge
There might be cheaper shops, but couldn't find any close enough so far
I can buy an aftermarket exhaust system in US for 300$ + shipping (for the 258) and make adaptations needed, and it would still be cheaper!