Rebuilt 360 won't fire up...

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ColoWagon
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Rebuilt 360 won't fire up...

Post by ColoWagon »

Hey folks,
Just "finished" an eight month labor of love/hate. 88 Grand Wagoneer AMC 360 bored .30 over. Edelbrock Cam and Intake, Carb. and timing set. Put in a Carter electric fuel pump (had three mechanicals fail in short order and was over it).
The fun...
Finally get to the point of trying to fire it up and no go.
Lots of chuffing up from the Carb..a really awesome flame jet that went 2-3 feet in the air(that's when I called it quits last night!) and at least one small fire in the bowl. I have spark...fuel for sure. Checked timing twice for TDC. On the rotor TDC is now at what used to be the number 2. Moved plugs to make sure I was lined up, and got more chuffing. Thought I was 180 off...flipped the dizzy. Same results. As I move the dizzy I get more or less chuffing and spitting but nothing pretty.
One note and this where I need advice as my mind is melting, the distributor plug (3 wires) broke sometime in the past 8 months. Currently the wires are soldered together with their matching pair. Could this be the issue? I can send pics of anything needed for clarification.

Thanks all and have a Happy 4th!

Brad

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Curly
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Re: Rebuilt 360 won't fire up...

Post by Curly »

You did install the timing set correctly, right? I'd go back to square 1, remove #1 plug, bring that cylinder to TDC on Compression. Pull the valve cover if you have to, just to be sure you are on the correct stroke. Verify Distributor is set to fire #1, check your firing order (and rotation direction). That should get you close enough to start.

Curly
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ColoWagon
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Re: Rebuilt 360 won't fire up...

Post by ColoWagon »

Checked and triple checked the timing set. Marks were good, chain count was good when engine rotated. I will pull the valve cover to get another view on it. Thanks for the idea!

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FSJ Guy
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Re: Rebuilt 360 won't fire up...

Post by FSJ Guy »

As long as you didn't mismatch the P/N wires on your distributor, soldering the connection shouldn't be an issue.

X2 on VERIFYING that you are at TDC on the COMPRESSION stroke!! That mistake caused me a huge headache when firing up my rebuilt motor, too!!

If possible, have a friend do it, too. Sometimes a second set of eyes can spot the mistake you've been staring at all along. BTDT.
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ColoWagon
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Re: Rebuilt 360 won't fire up...

Post by ColoWagon »

I have non experienced helpers, kids wanna roll in it also but am pulling everything and trying to zero in again

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ColoWagon
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Re: Rebuilt 360 won't fire up...

Post by ColoWagon »

I'm no expert but...crud. That is number one. Others seem ok. On that side going to pull the other side.Image

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az chip
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Re: Rebuilt 360 won't fire up...

Post by az chip »

Yeah, that is not helpful. Timing?
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ColoWagon
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Re: Rebuilt 360 won't fire up...

Post by ColoWagon »

That is what I am thinking...off to see if the box store has a replacement. Passenger side all look ok. Just #1 wanted to be unique.

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tedlovesjeeps71
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Re: Rebuilt 360 won't fire up...

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

That's odd...
Maybe it wasn't torqued down right?
I concur with everyone else after you replace the bent PR.
Set to verified TDC @#1. Pull the valve cover and watch the valves open/close so you know you're on compression. After intake valve (front valve) closes it will be heading to compression. Set TDC. Drop in your dizzy and rotate housing until the cap keyway let's the rotor point at #1. Verify your wires are in the correct firing order:
Image

And you should be ready to rock.
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ColoWagon
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Re: Rebuilt 360 won't fire up...

Post by ColoWagon »

Buttoned back up...at TDC. Before I crank was looking at the mark on the balancer. Seems off or this normal? Hopefully the pic explains it. Running out of steam may not be fully making sense.

Thanks everyone!Image

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FSJ Guy
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Re: Rebuilt 360 won't fire up...

Post by FSJ Guy »

People have said that an old harmonic balancer can "shift" and thus your timing marks can be off.

I'm more concerned about the actual cam timing, etc, given the bent #1 cylinder pushrod.
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REDONE
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Re: Rebuilt 360 won't fire up...

Post by REDONE »

FSJ Guy wrote:People have said that an old harmonic balancer can "shift" and thus your timing marks can be off.

I'm more concerned about the actual cam timing, etc, given the bent #1 cylinder pushrod.
Yeah, as the rubber decomposes the two metal parts can rotate relative to each other, but like you, that bent pushrod is what has me concerned. That and the fireballs.

If this where my engine, is pull all the spark plugs and both rocker covers and turn it over by hand a few times to check for interference (if the OP hasn't already since the bent pushrod).
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Tatsadasayago
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Re: Rebuilt 360 won't fire up...

Post by Tatsadasayago »

Judging by the way the pushrod is bent, I would say a valve was stuck or the cam timing isn't correct. Due to the long 'bowing' shape, that pushrod was likely bent at low RPM, such as cranking speed. When they are bent at higher RPM the bend is sharper most of the time.
You mentioned the carb was making a 'Chuffing' sound which is consistent with valve and/or ignition timing issues.
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ColoWagon
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Re: Rebuilt 360 won't fire up...

Post by ColoWagon »

I have heard the same. Don't think it is the case here though. Going to try again after work. If it fails I will begin tearing it all apart over the next month, lot of travel in July will slow me down. Going to double check the cam timing. I am positive it is ok. Just time and money eh?

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ColoWagon
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Re: Rebuilt 360 won't fire up...

Post by ColoWagon »

I turned the engine by hand, with the spark plugs out, and it turns with no issue. Harder of course with sparks in but nothing appears to bind or hang or hit. First time I have rebuilt an engine though so it is very possible that what I am seeing is different than a trained eye.
Question: If I get to the point where I am tearing it apart is it best to pull the engine, or leave engine and pull the front clip and work on it in the bay?

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REDONE
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Re: Rebuilt 360 won't fire up...

Post by REDONE »

Since you don't need to pull the pistons I think you could leave it in place. I do think you need to pull the timing cover so the radiator has to come out, but I don't think you need to take the whole clip off.
79 J-10 (Honcho Mucho) KE0LSU
304/Performance Fuel Injection TBI/MTA1/SP2P/Magnum rockers
T18/D20/D44s&4.10s/33" Mud Claws
Grizzly Locker Rear
4" front spring drop, 5" rear shackle flip
Chevy style HEI (ECM controlled)
Dolphin "Shark" gauges in a fancy homemade oak bezel
3/4 resto, rotting faster than I've been fixing it.
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tedlovesjeeps71
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Re: Rebuilt 360 won't fire up...

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

When you installed the new timing set:
1) did you compare it to the old one to see how it "lined up" relating to the timing marks and woodruff key location?
2) the marks were pointing at each other and not away from each other, right?
3) after you installed it did you rotate it a few times and recheck the alignment?


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ColoWagon
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Re: Rebuilt 360 won't fire up...

Post by ColoWagon »

1) I did check...was especially concerned with the groove for the oil slinger being different, it was slightly...corrected that.
2) by marks you mean the dots on the two gears? At each other I believe. I was using a manual for rebuilding and I set it up like the pictures in the guide, pretty sure they were pointing at each other.
3) yep...there was also something about turning it 90 degrees and then there being 21 links between the points. That also checked out exact.
Really regretting not taking any pictures now..Lesson learned!

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tedlovesjeeps71
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Re: Rebuilt 360 won't fire up...

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

ColoWagon wrote:1) I did check...was especially concerned with the groove for the oil slinger being different, it was slightly...corrected that.
2) by marks you mean the dots on the two gears? At each other I believe. I was using a manual for rebuilding and I set it up like the pictures in the guide, pretty sure they were pointing at each other.
3) yep...there was also something about turning it 90 degrees and then there being 21 links between the points. That also checked out exact.
Really regretting not taking any pictures now..Lesson learned!

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Lol, no worries. We all have wished we took pics of something only to later really "need" them. If for nothing else, peace of mind. Image
yes, the dots must sign up, point at each other. The reason this is vital is because the keyway/woodruff key keeps the gear (cam or crank) located on the shaft. If you put it on but the dots are a bit off, your cam won't be in the right spot.
You must put the #1 cylinder to TDC, put the gears/chain on their shafts and have the dots be aligned. If the dots don't line up you'll have to carefully rotate the camshaft to let that happen. It's kinda a three hand juggling act to get the dots aligned, the chain/gears on, and not let anything move. As you're discovering, due to the amount of work to do the chain, it's way worth it to make sure, 100% beyond a doubt, that it's right.
My understanding is once your install it and are satisfied it's correct, you rotate the engine by hand for several rotations. If you run say, 4 complete rotations and the timing dots are still aligned you should consider it good. The slack on the back side of the chain (passenger side as you're looking at the motor) is what can make it off. Thats also why you should always rotate the motor clockwise and never back it the other way if you go too far. If you miss your mark by just a little bit, don't back up. Just rotate another full cycle and stop when you need to.


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Tatsadasayago
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Re: Rebuilt 360 won't fire up...

Post by Tatsadasayago »

The last rebuild I saw with a bent pushrod like yours was when some dufus dropped an air cleaner nut into the carb. The nut made it past the intake valve and managed to embed itself into the head of the piston directly under the valve. The difference was that engine did in fact start up and ran decent for about 30 seconds before I heard the knocking begin. Since you're getting funky chuffing sounds from the intake tract and fire spitting out of the carb, it has to be either valve or ignition timing.
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