Lowering a Wagoneer?

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81waggy
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Lowering a Wagoneer?

Post by 81waggy »

Lets be clear...I'm not planning on dragging the exhaust along the pavement.

I bought an 81 Wagoneer with the factory 235/75/r15 and stock leaf springs that are completely shot...I mean flat across shot. The problem is I kinda like the "station wagon" look compared to the even slightly lifted "stock oem" springs that I can get. From what I can tell, stock springs will lift it about 2" from where it is now and I really don't want to do that.

Its mainly used around town and not designed/built/used for off road at all.

A few thoughts are to either replace with stock springs and remove a leaf or 2 to get the right height. Should I go with the 7 leaf front so I still have more leaves up front?

Or, could I get a 4" over arched spring, mount under the axle (~3 1/2" in dia)?

Here's a pick of the current height
IMG_20170803_150511152_HDR1.jpg
and with the 2" lift.
IMG_20170803_150621938_HDR.jpg
It's not much but I like the lower better. If you can't see the difference, look at the fenders.

Thoughts on how to keep it where it is?
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cmaje72
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Re: Lowering a Wagoneer?

Post by cmaje72 »

What is it about the springs you have now that you don't like? If there is a spring shop near you you could have them slightly re-arched. Or if the ride is too soft maybe a stiffer shock?
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Re: Lowering a Wagoneer?

Post by Stuka »

You can have alcan or somebody make you new springs that are slightly lower than stock. Another option is to just get a new main leaf, and then use air bags to actually take the weight.
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Re: Lowering a Wagoneer?

Post by tgreese »

I don't understand your reasoning. To keep the ride height where it is now, the springs will need the amount of arch they have now. If you replace them with springs with more arch, the ride height will increase. Are you thinking the ride quality will get better with new springs? Puzzled.
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Re: Lowering a Wagoneer?

Post by fulsizjeep »

Me know understand.
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Re: Lowering a Wagoneer?

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

All I got...
Image


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81waggy
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Re: Lowering a Wagoneer?

Post by 81waggy »

Basically the ride suxx now. And I'm not talking about the difference between leaf springs and coils/ifs, I mean I drive over a manhole that isn't perfectly level with the pavement and it feels like windows might shatter.

So yes, I'm hoping that the ride quality will improve with new springs. New shocks are also part of the equation.

I tried looking online at the airbag option, just haven't looked deep enough to see if there's enough space to get the lower ride height. Right now there's about 4 inches between the frame and top of spring.

There was an article on four wheeler I think, a while back about a lowered 83 but didn't get into what they did to the suspension other than swapping out the front axle. The writer was more fascinated by the bamboo used for the door panels and dash cover.

There's a few shops around who deal with restos and classic cars. Going to get their thoughts over the next few days.
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81waggy
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Re: Lowering a Wagoneer?

Post by 81waggy »

tedlovesjeeps71 wrote:All I got...
Image


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Not quite that low.... :D
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Re: Lowering a Wagoneer?

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

I'd guess the rough ride is the axles hitting the bump stops. Only way I see to make it ride at that height is custom springs made for correct weight rating plus some to keep it from hitting. But that in itself would result in a harsher ride.
Airbags may work but will probably have to be made to fit.


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tgreese
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Re: Lowering a Wagoneer?

Post by tgreese »

Yes, riding on the bump stops.

You can't have good ride quality without some suspension travel. The original ride height gave at least a few inches between the axles and the bump stops. With live axles and a ladder frame, you don't have any room to go lower without the axles bumping into the frame.

Something major will have to change to get the ride height and ride that you want.

If there's actually 4" between the frame and the stops, that should be suffieicient. However, I don't think new steel is going to ride any different from old steel. The ride height depends on how much the springs compress from the weight of the vehicle - the spring "rate." If everything were moving the way it should, you would need a higher spring rate to lift the Jeep higher.

If you really have 4" of travel available, you have other problems, like shocks that are frozen, or the leaves of the springs are rusted solid together. How are the spring bushings? If the springs are just flat with an even elliptical arc (not wavy or bent looking), you could take the spring packs apart and clean/lubricate them, or there are teflon shims you can put between the leaves to help them move smoothly. The mechanics at the Jeep dealer where I worked would routinely lubricate the leaf springs of Wagoneers, using an oil can filled with half motor oil and half solvent. There has been some controversy over lubricating springs, but I'd say try it and see if it helps.

Wagoneers as a group ride pretty nice, in my experience. I would definitely replace the shocks (no need to go fancy here) and overhaul the springs. Clean, lube, new bushings. Don't over-tighten the shackles. Lower your tire pressure. What kind of tires are you running? If you have some E-rated all-terrains inflated to the rated pressure, you're going to feel every pebble.
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Re: Lowering a Wagoneer?

Post by Stuka »

My guess is his stock springs are rusted in place to each other so they wont slide against each other. The stock springs on my Cherokee were like this. Rode TERRIBLE. Tearing them down and cleaning them helped.
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Re: Lowering a Wagoneer?

Post by Stuka »

BTW: We have a guy on here that lowered his waggy with airbags, but sadly most of the photos are being help for ransom by photobucket:

http://fsjnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2851
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Re: Lowering a Wagoneer?

Post by cmaje72 »

What Stuka said above...I had a wag that rode harsh on the stock springs. Got some jack stands under the frame to let the axle droop and the leaves of the spring to fan out enough that I could spray fluid film between them...what a difference. Also as someone said above checking that the the shackle bolts are not over tightened or seized may help too.
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Re: Lowering a Wagoneer?

Post by tgreese »

Another possibility is the wrong shocks are installed. If the shocks are too long, they will fully bottom out before the axle reaches the bump stop. Compressed length must be less than the distance between the top and bottom pins minus the distance between the axle and the compressed bump stop.
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Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
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Lowering a Wagoneer?

Post by 66stepside »

If you're just trying to get a little lower, I've used 2" lowering blocks ( they also can lift 2") from Gattozone Auto Parts. That will only work if the leaf springs are under the axle.
Final look for the saggin' waggin' (bad rear sag in the back):
Image

Keep in mind blocks in the front to raise, or lower a vehicle are usually illegal in many areas- but I've never heard of anyone getting busted for it.

I also have used custom springs on the Panel Delivery I had:

Image

The ride on lowered rigs is not as cushy as stock height.
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Re: Lowering a Wagoneer?

Post by Stuka »

Oh, also be aware of axle to oil pan clearance when lowering.
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Re: Lowering a Wagoneer?

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

66stepside wrote:If you're just trying to get a little lower, I've used 2" lowering blocks ( they also can lift 2") from Gattozone Auto Parts. That will only work if the leaf springs are under the axle.


Keep in mind blocks in the front to raise, or lower a vehicle are usually illegal in many areas- but I've never heard of anyone getting busted for it.
Using blocks under the front is a horrible idea and dangerous. It used to be the poor man's lift back in the day but thankfully most people have stopped trying to be that cheap. Unlike the rear, the front axle has more movement and stresses applied since it turns as well. If a block kicks out you risk vehicle damage at best, major accident at worst. Please don't use blocks under the front.


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Re: Lowering a Wagoneer?

Post by 66stepside »

tedlovesjeeps71 wrote:
66stepside wrote:If you're just trying to get a little lower, I've used 2" lowering blocks ( they also can lift 2") from Gattozone Auto Parts. That will only work if the leaf springs are under the axle.


Keep in mind blocks in the front to raise, or lower a vehicle are usually illegal in many areas- but I've never heard of anyone getting busted for it.
Using blocks under the front is a horrible idea and dangerous. It used to be the poor man's lift back in the day but thankfully most people have stopped trying to be that cheap. Unlike the rear, the front axle has more movement and stresses applied since it turns as well. If a block kicks out you risk vehicle damage at best, major accident at worst. Please don't use blocks under the front.


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Yeah, that's why it's illegal.

It works, though.

I just wouldn't drive like a doughnut hole with that set up. I also wouldn't off road with that set up either.
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Re: Lowering a Wagoneer?

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

66stepside wrote:
tedlovesjeeps71 wrote:
66stepside wrote:If you're just trying to get a little lower, I've used 2" lowering blocks ( they also can lift 2") from Gattozone Auto Parts. That will only work if the leaf springs are under the axle.


Keep in mind blocks in the front to raise, or lower a vehicle are usually illegal in many areas- but I've never heard of anyone getting busted for it.
Using blocks under the front is a horrible idea and dangerous. It used to be the poor man's lift back in the day but thankfully most people have stopped trying to be that cheap. Unlike the rear, the front axle has more movement and stresses applied since it turns as well. If a block kicks out you risk vehicle damage at best, major accident at worst. Please don't use blocks under the front.


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Yeah, that's why it's illegal.

It works, though.

I just wouldn't drive like a doughnut hole with that set up. I also wouldn't off road with that set up either.
I hear ya. Wasn't trying to bash on you for your suggestion. I just remember the days when people used blocks and have have to fix a few. Scary to say the least.

Good explanation here:

http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/suspe ... ft-blocks/

I will admit I've used them once. Had to move a project around and the only roller tires I had wouldn't fit without more height. Put them in, got it moved, took em right back out. Image
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66stepside
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Re: Lowering a Wagoneer?

Post by 66stepside »

tedlovesjeeps71 wrote:
66stepside wrote:
tedlovesjeeps71 wrote:
Using blocks under the front is a horrible idea and dangerous. It used to be the poor man's lift back in the day but thankfully most people have stopped trying to be that cheap. Unlike the rear, the front axle has more movement and stresses applied since it turns as well. If a block kicks out you risk vehicle damage at best, major accident at worst. Please don't use blocks under the front.


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Yeah, that's why it's illegal.

It works, though.

I just wouldn't drive like a doughnut hole with that set up. I also wouldn't off road with that set up either.
I hear ya. Wasn't trying to bash on you for your suggestion. I just remember the days when people used blocks and have have to fix a few. Scary to say the least.

Good explanation here:

http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/suspe ... ft-blocks/

I will admit I've used them once. Had to move a project around and the only roller tires I had wouldn't fit without more height. Put them in, got it moved, took em right back out. Image
It's all good. I couldn't find the article, but there was a terrible accident here where a guy redneck-engineered a 3" block lift in the front, and it ended badly for him, his Chevy and two other cars.

Many of stance/tuner guys lower their cars and trucks around here all the time with blocks. Aside from the hillbilly, there's never been a "lowering with blocks-related" accident.

That being said, it is usually illegal to use any blocks in the front. I'd still do it, but no more than 3" lowered- never raised blocks in the front.
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