What's needed to swap to Dana 44 8 lug outers?

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Adventure_Wagon88
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What's needed to swap to Dana 44 8 lug outers?

Post by Adventure_Wagon88 »

Searched, found a little info but really only just enough to pique my curiosity. I bought a GM 14 bolt rear for my FSJ, It's 67" WMS-WMS. I am good with that width, and I would like to eventually have a D60 up front to match but I'll explain after my question why that is probably going to wait. My question is what parts do I need to convert the front to 8 lug? I believe I have learned that the 8 lug conversion will also push my front WMS width out 2" total, is that correct? Should I buy the parts, or buy a full Ford HP D44 complete (needing rebuild) for $3-400? I know of two available locally at that price point. Obviously they will need seals, UJs, calipers, and rotors at a minimum to work reliably, may as well. My current Waggy front axle needs the same parts realistically.

So why not go D60 right away? I'm in the middle of a complete driveline swap and partial restoration, and the only front D60 that will work for me seems to be the 78-79 Ford Dana 60 HP. Yes, I know the GM axles will work too but I'm going Ford trans and NP203/205 doubler so my thinking is just to keep the driveline as Ford as possible with the exception of the 14 bolt. Going price for those little 78-79 buggers near me as far as I can tell is $1100-1500 and of course that's going to need the same bits as any of the other options I have. An 80's/90's Ford D60 HP seems to bring more like $500-700 but of course that's not a bolt in swap. At this point with so many other irons in the fire with the project, I'd rather not worry about a custom front axle setup. Eventually, if I'm going to be spending in the neighborhood of $2000 on a front D60 axle swap I feel I'd rather spend that money to do a custom 3 link setup. But again, now is not the time for that, I'd rather spend my time and money right now on getting the Jeep to a drivable state so I can enjoy it some rather than jump in deeper.

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Re: What's needed to swap to Dana 44 8 lug outers?

Post by Adventure_Wagon88 »

I should also add that beefing up the D44 Waggy axle is not something I consider throwing money away because my next build will be a CJ5 or CJ7 with my TDI motor at the heart of it and I plan to use the original Waggy D44 axles under that. I will then either swap that back to the 6 lug outers or throw 8 lug shafts or adapters on the rear.

troopthrowback
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Re: What's needed to swap to Dana 44 8 lug outers?

Post by troopthrowback »

It's remarkable how so many will call you foolish for going intermediate before one tons, when you have a clearly lined out plan that makes sense. The "go one tons or everything else is a waste of money" tend to forget that there are plenty of folks interested in buying up 1/2 and 3/4 ton axles for their setups when you're done with them.

While I don't have specific knowledge for you, I am interested in just this direction myself for my 63 build (not yet started) and want to offer my support for your efforts.


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tedlovesjeeps71
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Re: What's needed to swap to Dana 44 8 lug outers?

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

troopthrowback wrote:It's remarkable how so many will call you foolish for going intermediate before one tons, when you have a clearly lined out plan that makes sense. The "go one tons or everything else is a waste of money" tend to forget that there are plenty of folks interested in buying up 1/2 and 3/4 ton axles for their setups when you're done with them.

While I don't have specific knowledge for you, I am interested in just this direction myself for my 63 build (not yet started) and want to offer my support for your efforts.


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People often fall for the "ton" falicy. If one looks at their needs and can avoid the Johnson measuring they will often be perfectly happy with less. Heck, my boss's wife daily drives her JKU on 40s and it's rocking a trussed 30. They wheel the snot out of it too and have yet to break it.


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Re: What's needed to swap to Dana 44 8 lug outers?

Post by Adventure_Wagon88 »

Well I don't want to overlook the fact that I have an 850 lb engine pounding on the front end but yeah; I think the D44 will hold up better than I expect. Planning to run 37s and keep it open diff unless I decide to run alloy shafts
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REDONE
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Re: What's needed to swap to Dana 44 8 lug outers?

Post by REDONE »

Well, if your rig is an 88 as your screen name suggests, you SHOULD already have the bigger diameter spindles. That's not guaranteed though. If you do already have the big spindles, you'll need the following:
8-lug hubs (because you want 8 lugs, right?)
8-lug rotors (can't fit a 6 lug rotor on an 8 lug hub!)
Backing plates or caliper brackets (the same thing, just different names. Need them because the 8 lug rotors are bigger diameter).
Calipers should be the same. Some think there should be beefier calipers for the heavier axle, but instead they have more mechanical advantage by being on a larger diameter rotor.

Since you're sticking new hubs on your spindles, it's a fine time to replace the wheel bearings and seals too (wheel seal + inner and outer bearing).

Back to the spindles, it's a crap shoot. Supposedly there's a year change where both 1/2 and 3/4 Jeep&Chevy D44s all got the big spindles, but I've found the smaller diameter spindles on late 80's FSJ and 1/2ton chevies. Heck, mine had big on one side and small on the other thanks to some dipstick PO or mechanic along the way. That said, the spindle won't hang you up with the hub, those are all the same on the inner bore, but they use different bearings to fit the different spindles. AGAIN, you should have the big spindles already. The big spindles were used longer and more recently, BUT the smaller spindles keep showing up EVERY time I'm not checking for them, so just make sure before you buy parts or order bearings. Big spindles I'm pretty sure 2" diameter for the inner bearing diameter.

A agree that many overkill on the front axle. Before IFS, lots of desert racers would beef up a 44 rather than go 60 just to keep the unsprung weight down. Also, I don't have empirical data in front of me, but it seems that the most common failures for D44s are the knuckle u-joints (which can be beefed up with CTMs or the like) and the most common failure with D60s is shafts snapping because they taper down to the same diameter as D44 shafts at some point, don't they? So it seems to me, that a D44 with fancy u-joints has the same weak link as a stock D60 at a fraction of the cost and less weight. EDIT>>> For front axles only, obviously. SF rears are not in league with FF rears. :P
79 J-10 (Honcho Mucho) KE0LSU
304/Performance Fuel Injection TBI/MTA1/SP2P/Magnum rockers
T18/D20/D44s&4.10s/33" Mud Claws
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4" front spring drop, 5" rear shackle flip
Chevy style HEI (ECM controlled)
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3/4 resto, rotting faster than I've been fixing it.
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tedlovesjeeps71
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Re: What's needed to swap to Dana 44 8 lug outers?

Post by tedlovesjeeps71 »

One other thing... Be patient when parts hunting. There could be a couple different rotor hat heights. You may need some trial and error to find what works.


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REDONE
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Re: What's needed to swap to Dana 44 8 lug outers?

Post by REDONE »

If he sticks with 80-87 Chevy 8lug D44s (and 10b) he should be alright. I've been in plenty and they've all been exactly same same. Heck, he could almost be out the door for $300 at Rockauto for all new, except the caliper brackets. Those are a little harder to source new.

In my experience, Chevy didn't care that it was a D44 or D60, they classified them as 3500# axle and 4500# axle. They used the 10b in place of the D44 and it didn't show up on paper. As far as they were concerned, they're the same thing. Fortunately for us, with chevies, the outers of the 10b are identical to the D44 for both 6 lug and 8 lug, respectively. The 4500# axle had more brake configurations depending on if it was a long bed, stake bed, chassis cab, box truck, SRW, DRW, etc. The 3500# (D44) in 8 lug, I've only seen a difference in calipers depending on if it had power brakes or not (early 70s). Non power brake calipers had a gigantic piston, but the cylinders were thin and prone to cracking.
79 J-10 (Honcho Mucho) KE0LSU
304/Performance Fuel Injection TBI/MTA1/SP2P/Magnum rockers
T18/D20/D44s&4.10s/33" Mud Claws
Grizzly Locker Rear
4" front spring drop, 5" rear shackle flip
Chevy style HEI (ECM controlled)
Dolphin "Shark" gauges in a fancy homemade oak bezel
3/4 resto, rotting faster than I've been fixing it.

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Re: What's needed to swap to Dana 44 8 lug outers?

Post by Adventure_Wagon88 »

Thanks for all the information! I do have an 88 so hopefully the big spindles. So I at very least need to scour salvage yards for the backing plates, I'll grab the 8 lug hubs from that vehicle too if they're present. Most likely I will just buy new rotors unless the donor vehicle happens to have a really nice looking set somehow. Seems like this is going to make the front rotors identical to the back rotors I'll be using for my 14 bolt disc swap, is that correct?

Do any of our vendors here sell a good D44 truss?

Edit: of course, I will go ahead and replace the seals and bearings while I'm doing this as well ;)
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REDONE
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Re: What's needed to swap to Dana 44 8 lug outers?

Post by REDONE »

You bet! A lot of this is fresh in my mind because I'm approaching the opposite problem. I want a light weight FF rear axle with 6x5.5" bolt pattern. :mrgreen:

EDIT>>> check with 999 Off-road for a truss. They don't list one for D44s but they wheel D44s in Ouray, so they may have something in the works!
79 J-10 (Honcho Mucho) KE0LSU
304/Performance Fuel Injection TBI/MTA1/SP2P/Magnum rockers
T18/D20/D44s&4.10s/33" Mud Claws
Grizzly Locker Rear
4" front spring drop, 5" rear shackle flip
Chevy style HEI (ECM controlled)
Dolphin "Shark" gauges in a fancy homemade oak bezel
3/4 resto, rotting faster than I've been fixing it.

cmaje72
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Re: What's needed to swap to Dana 44 8 lug outers?

Post by cmaje72 »

I have been looking at doing basically the same thing. I'm going to use a newer 14bolt with factory discs. Converting the front to 8 lug should add about 1.5" to either side making you about even with the rear as far as wms wdith goes. The hardest part to find is the 3/4 ton caliper brackets. Everything else can be purchased new. I have been looking for a while. Just about everyone I talk to only wants to sell me a whole axle and up here in NY most of them are rotted out.
I thought about using a ford HP44 or even going to a 60 but I don't really want to add all the extra costs of going SOA in the front.
79 Cherokee 5.3/4l65E/NP241C
79 CJ7

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Re: What's needed to swap to Dana 44 8 lug outers?

Post by Adventure_Wagon88 »

cmaje72 wrote:I have been looking at doing basically the same thing. I'm going to use a newer 14bolt with factory discs. Converting the front to 8 lug should add about 1.5" to either side making you about even with the rear as far as wms wdith goes. The hardest part to find is the 3/4 ton caliper brackets. Everything else can be purchased new. I have been looking for a while. Just about everyone I talk to only wants to sell me a whole axle and up here in NY most of them are rotted out.
I thought about using a ford HP44 or even going to a 60 but I don't really want to add all the extra costs of going SOA in the front.

Nice! So you went with the AAM 14 bolt in the rear. Out of a truck I assume? I was looking at one from a van but decided to steer clear because of van width and a bunch of other reasons. I'll be converting the rear axle to disc which really isn't too expensive. The yards down here have tons of GM stuff but most if it is the IFS variety. If I happen across 2 sets of fronts I'll get the brackets for you. It appears I can get a rotor/hub assembly from Rock Auto for about $150 so I think I'll be trying those soon and hit the yards every couple weeks in search of the brackets. I'm pumped to hear this is such a simple swap and will match up with the rear nicely :D

cmaje72
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Re: What's needed to swap to Dana 44 8 lug outers?

Post by cmaje72 »

I don't have the 14bolt yet. Some chevy 2500's had the AAM 10.5 which is basically a 14 bolt with some differences. I'm going that route because I found a source of them cheap, factory discs, 4.10s, factory locker, and a parking brake that doesn't suck. The ones out of the trucks are 68"WMS.

If I find any brackets I'll let you know too. If I can find a set I'm thinking about having a machinist buddy of mine try to replicate them.
79 Cherokee 5.3/4l65E/NP241C
79 CJ7

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Re: What's needed to swap to Dana 44 8 lug outers?

Post by Adventure_Wagon88 »

What's the factory locker found in them? Factory 4:10s would be nice, factory disc doesn't excite me too much, the 14 bolt kits are cheap, though the disc calipers with good parking brakes are salty. I just ordered up the Ruff Stuff swap kit for my 14 bolt, only $280 (20% off sale) for caliper brackets, perches, u bolts, pinion guard, diff cover, shock mount tabs, and hardware.
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REDONE
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Re: What's needed to swap to Dana 44 8 lug outers?

Post by REDONE »

The most common traction aid for the 14FF is by far the GOV-LOCK. It's by many accounts worse than an open diff. It uses 3 spiders instead of four, and it uses centrifugal force to swing a hook around. When there's enough differential speed between the axle shafts, the hook grabs a lever that applies clutch friction to transfer torque between the shafts. Nifty in theory, but in practice, it's too much torque, so the hook breaks off, jams in the ring and pinion, and now you're shopping for an open diff and new gears.
79 J-10 (Honcho Mucho) KE0LSU
304/Performance Fuel Injection TBI/MTA1/SP2P/Magnum rockers
T18/D20/D44s&4.10s/33" Mud Claws
Grizzly Locker Rear
4" front spring drop, 5" rear shackle flip
Chevy style HEI (ECM controlled)
Dolphin "Shark" gauges in a fancy homemade oak bezel
3/4 resto, rotting faster than I've been fixing it.

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Adventure_Wagon88
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Re: What's needed to swap to Dana 44 8 lug outers?

Post by Adventure_Wagon88 »

Yeah, i've read about the Gov locks. I'm about to glove up and bust mine open to see what's inside. Hoping I find open diff, or maybe I'm super lucky and find a LSD.

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Re: What's needed to swap to Dana 44 8 lug outers?

Post by Adventure_Wagon88 »

Well I didn't get LSD lucky, but good news is I don't have a Gov Lock!
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Re: What's needed to swap to Dana 44 8 lug outers?

Post by jpswapmohn »

AW, I happen to have a set of the caliper brackets that you need to go 8-lug. I think I listed them here with a couple of photos. They are a bit of a challenge to find. This set are NOS, which means little other than they haven’t been mounted before.

As I have had to explain to several folks that have asked... The caliper brackets have 6 holes because they mount to the spindle, and have no bearing on the lug pattern. This seems to be a point of confusion for many. The difference is the spacing for the calipers to match the rotor position, and they are beefier.

The caliper brackets, rotors, calipers are the same for a 80’s Chevy K20.

edit: here is the post: http://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/viewtop ... 18&t=13292

I am also starting work up in the Scranton/Stroudsburg area, so could bring them up to ya.
Take a look at the posting and pm/email me if interested.
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cmaje72
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Re: What's needed to swap to Dana 44 8 lug outers?

Post by cmaje72 »

The locker in the newer AAM axles is an updated unit made by Eaton. I think the gov lock mainly got its bad rap due to the hot rod guys stuffing the 10 bolt versions in their 10 bolts and expecting them to hold up to big power. I'm not all that concerned since my cherokee is not an offroad jeep. I'm running stock size tires and stock 5.3 power levels. A 14 bolt is probably overkill for my purposes but I want to get rid of the offset 44 and they are $250 a pop so...no brainer. Plus I'll end up with better brakes front and rear which will be nice to help stop my camper.

If your planning on using caddy calipers get new ones if you can. The first two sets of remanned ones I bought didn't work properly. I spent a lot of time troubleshooting them and trying to get them to work properly on my cj and in the end it turned out to be the calipers themselves. A working mechanical parking brake is a requirement to pass vehicle inspection here so I couldn't put it on the road until I got it sorted out.
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79 CJ7

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Re: What's needed to swap to Dana 44 8 lug outers?

Post by Adventure_Wagon88 »

Here's the 14 bolt calipers with e-brake that were recommended to me by Offroad Design - http://tsmmfg.com/More.../3120.html

These are said to work much better than the Cadillac calipers, but they are salty at $320 but at least they're loaded and come with hardware.
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