A vehicular philosophy conundrum: Truck or Trailer...

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A vehicular philosophy conundrum: Truck or Trailer...

Post by Nikkormat »

The happiest time of my life (so far) was being able to get in my jeep every morning, feather it to life, and go about my day. It was predictable, reliable, and after a little tuning and part replacing low maintenance. The only thing it wasn't a 10 out of 10 at was work.

I make my summer living working for a friends bathroom remodel (and now home construction) company. He drove a pathfinder with some Yakima racks on top and it did just fine. But it hasn't lasted long. 3 years and it croaked, carrying to much weight every day did it in. He bought a newer Tacoma and started using it. The difference between loading up a truck (even with a topper) vs an SUV was stark to say the least. And it made me realize that even if I outfitted my Cherokee with a rack for sheet goods and 2x4's that it would still be a compromise between the reliable daily driver I wanted and the work vehicle I needed.

Then after school started again, the motor blew. I should have seen the signs... Valve tick on number 7 that an old friend convinced me to write off as an exhaust leak "all of my 360's leaked right there and it sounds just like valve tick it'll go away". But deep down I new something wasn't right. Hell, I almost drove my moms car to school the day it happened. I would have come home, started it, and spun the bearings in the driveway not in the middle of the highway. But hey, everything happens for a reason. Doesn't it?

Then luckily for me, my dad side swiped a pole in the parking garage at work. He didn't want to drive it with a big sent in it so he tried to trade it in. The stealership would only give him tw grand for it on a trade in. So he kept it and bought a new one that was 2 grand cheaper than what he wanted. So he let me drive the old one around.

I was happy to not have to ride the bus, and I don't mean to sound like a prick here. But that thing F'ng sucks to drive. I had attained the vehicular equivalent of happiness and lost it in one sad week. It was a soulless fuel injected piece of overcomplicated machinery. So the search began right away for a new 401. I called all of the usual haunts for jeep parts around here and most couldn't even get a 360. So the search began for a junkyard swap. I contemplated LS motors, diesels, turbo charged 6 cylinders, even Japanese motors from toyota pickups. But the only only that made sense was an LS.

I got the pick n pull alert on my phone at 8am on a Wednesday. 6.2 in an 03 2500 GMC 38k miles. Drove into yard, no title. I new it would be gone fast so I cut class and ran down to the pull yard. I had planned to leave with the whole drivetrain but by the time I got there the engine was already spoken for and the trams was dangling from a hoist. I was going to do a cursory inspection of the yard and go back to school. But halfway through pulling an antenna of a wag a big old International pickup caught my attention. I knew that the 401 was an option for international trucks in early 74 but I doughted I would be that lucky. But, I did get Lucky. A spotless 401 and a rebuilt T19 transmission for $350 bucks. Not bad for my first pick n pull run if I do say so myself.

In the parking lot loading up my new boat anchor a guy comes up to me. "You pulled the 401 out of that international huh? Your lucky you beat me here I'm.after the same thing." He was driving a beat up old 77 chief with a slightly modified flat topped TAD rack. "Yes I sure did." My luck was on its way up for the first time since I blew the old motor.

I knew right then and their that I never wanted to be in a new truck again. Even if that meant getting a little dirty to keep them on the road.



I devised a good scheme. Have the Cherokee as a daily driver and work truck for doing tile work (as I rarely would have had to load her to the gills like I will next summer, but I didn't know that yet). And a fuel efficient, even older, but still practical sports car. Something with enough room in the back for all of my tools if I had to take it to work.

The sports car came unexpectedly that following Friday. Surfing craigslist for an engine hoist and stand (as I still.had my new engine and transmission in the bed of my fathers truck) I came across one local to me at a steal of a price. $175 bucks for a hoist and stand. I contacted the seller and arranged to go see it later that day. I pulled up and the guy notices the engine in the back of the truck. "Thats not an AMC noise machine is it?"he said. "Yep and I bet you can guess what I need a hoist for too!" We chatted for a few hours and I discovered that I had run into a jeep guy from way back when. "Is your rig Quadratrac? That BW1339 is the best 4wd system ever made. It was designed for the military you know." and "Man I drove my (75) J20 until I retired two years ago. Now it pushes snow around up by saint Mary's glacier. And my wife had a wagoneer (72, 76, 83) till she retired in 07. If you like them old jeeps I've got something else you might be interested in too."

He took me around back and pulled the tarp off of a certain little white British sports car. "You seem like a great kid. I've got to move because my wife is on oxygen and can't stay up here anymore. I cant take all this crap with me. So I'll give you a deal on the car and engine tools. $420 bucks will get you the car, three running engines, two transmissions, and all the parts to put Penelope back together again." Shoot, it even came with a title and a bill of sale.

So my plan for a ye-olde fleet of vehicles was shaping up well. Now I just needs to get both running and upfitted for my needs. Simple enough eh? But that would have been to easy. I found out that my boss passed his GC (general contractor) exam. Were not just going to do bathrooms anymore. Were gonna build houses.

That means that I won't just be occasionally hauling some hardiebacker at some 2x4's. I'm going to be making a depot run everyday. Carrying thousands of pounds of tools and building materials everywhere I go. And driving up all of the crap roads and job sites we have up here. Hmmm I don't know if the Cherokee is ready for that. So I really only have two options.

#1 A purpose built trailer, transmission cooloing system, and beefed up suspension. Costing me around 6 grand I don't t have and that's of I stay on the cheap side.
Or
#2 A work truck. With a topper, contractor rack, and Quadratrac to get me up into the backwoods jobsites. Doable at around 2500. Even if the thing doesn't run.

So I looked at all the years and decided that since some parts are exclusive to 74, and since I already had at leat one of every wear item for 74. I would need to find a 1974 J truck.

Since my two keeps would have identical drive trains maintenance should be no problem. Keeping one spare of everything (and I mean everything) on hand would be an easy task. And if worse came to worse I could drive the Cherokee to work for a day instead. Or steal parts off of it should the need arise. Hell I could even swap a drivetrain from spares or from one jeep to the other in a weekend. So should both jeeps be inoperable (highly unlikely, unless there is a zip tie and duct tape shortage) I could drive my little white sorts car. If all three break at once, I'll probably be having a bad enough day to just call in a substitute for myself and go back to bed.

Am I nuts? Should I just work towards a trailer instead of a truck?

Can I apply for a handicap parking pass, on account of my mental illness that causes me to crave old jeeps?
Gabe, "reformed" Jeep hoarder.
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HOOT
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Re: A vehicular philosophy conundrum: Truck or Trailer...

Post by HOOT »

I tried to do that. In the end I bought my 1995 F350. It is definitely my work horse and here lately it has been my daily driver as the Jeeps are all underthe knife at the same time. I plan on selling the F350 this fall as the J20 gets back out on the road full duty. Trying to work on the Jeeps was wondering not working out the best. My J 20 was agreat truck until the big crash. After fighting everything on it for the last 3 years I decided to cyt it up anduse it to build the other Jeeps. The current J20 is a somewhat newer purchase for me with the full intention on replacing the F350.... It's a silly goal in life to most of my friends but they drive Chevy's anyway so what would they know.
1980 and 81 J20 melding into a 1980 Utility bed J20. Project cancelled and for sale, found a factory truck.
1980 J20 Utility truck. Replaced above project.
1977 Honcho getting turned into a 1977 J20 Gladoncho.
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Josh d
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Re: A vehicular philosophy conundrum: Truck or Trailer...

Post by Josh d »

I know this desease well. I too am a lover of old Jeeps and old sports cars and I can assure you that the more you add to the fleet, the frustration builds from a time and financial perspective. Especially if financially restrained or a wife (CFO) and kids who also drain time and money!

I'd focus on the Chero and get a trailer. Another FSJ would be cool to have, but it would be another drain on time and finances. Keep the MGB GT as a long term project or running restoration. It has by far the most collector appreciation potential. Hopefully you got it rust free. And it will break down on you, even if it is just sitting!
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Nikkormat
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Re: A vehicular philosophy conundrum: Truck or Trailer...

Post by Nikkormat »

Alright, I've done some math...

I can keep a spare rebuilt 401 for $1600
A spare rebuilt th400 for $1000
And a spare QT for $400 bucks

So that's a whole drivetrain for the jeep (or jeeps) for 3 thousand. I've already rebuilt the MG motor and have two running spares. So when I add in the 1500 I'd like to spend on a truck I come out at 3500 bucks. 2500 less then a cheap trailer.

Hmmm I'll have to look at the differences in insurance costs. I would like the redundancy of having three cars and enough spares to build two more.

Man I've really worked myself into a hole here. Here's one I'm looking at. https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/74171667@ ... 901395397/
Gabe, "reformed" Jeep hoarder.

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Re: A vehicular philosophy conundrum: Truck or Trailer...

Post by Jeeptchr »

Nikkormat, I always like reading your posts as it reminds me a lot of myself when I was your age (and some of my thought processes still).

When I was your age I had a CJ-7 with a 3 speed and 304 that was really just a bondo bucket and a death ticket. We farmed, and in the summers I baled hay for money to save up for college. I was very attached to my jeep, and drove it everywhere using if for as much farm work as I could as I "didn't" want to drive our farm trucks unless I had to. On a few occasions I found myself moving our square and round balers with my jeep rather than the 1ton farm truck. I remember it being scary beyond reason as I pulled the square baler down the highway and over 10 miles of gravel to the new field, but i thought it was fun and cool since the jeep had power enough to do it. Looking back I'm glad I have the story, but I wish I would have had enough sense to use the right tool for the right job.

I know you are thinking it would be cool to have matching vehicles (and I think it would be too!) but there are a few things to think about before you head down this road. The first is if your friend is stepping up his business to a full fledged contractor a lot of the times the lumberyards will deliver to the job site. So hopefully there will only be smaller loads like what you can fit in a truck bed. If there are larger loads that you are expected to haul I would hope that you would be compensated for the wear and tear on your vehicle, as it will be substantial, even if you just use a trailer behind your Cherokee there still is wear and tear on it and repairs as a direct result of working your vehicle. Plus, the liability of hauling materials is on you, not your boss. I have a cousin that works for a excavation company. He drives a dually, and his boss cons him into hauling the backhoe all the time for fuel money. My cousin is out the wear and tear, and it is on his insurance if something happens in transit. Just something to keep in mind.

Second, the reliability of an older vehicle for a work truck. Take Hoot's gentle suggestion, buy a newer cheap truck, like a 90's ford with fuel injection for cheap (sub $2000) make a few repairs and drive it into the ground. Then scrap it and repeat. If you want, buy the old 74 j truck for the cool factor but not for the work truck (right now). As you are already aware, the dependability of the older vehicles are a bit questionable for a DD let alone a reliable work truck.

Same goes with buying a trailer, and what type of trailer are you looking at? Hopefully not a large enclosed. You can usually find trailers fairly reasonable on craigslist and facebook. I would look at a trailer as a better option than the j truck (or roof rack) to work out of.

But these are just my opinions looking in from outside, just remember we are all gearheads just like you. For the most part we all have a few yrs on you and quite a few collective experiences and want to see you take steps forward rather than back in your journey when we make suggestions and commentary.

Looking forward to seeing how you proceed,
Brad
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Josh d
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Re: A vehicular philosophy conundrum: Truck or Trailer...

Post by Josh d »

I think you are off with your math. There is way more cost to an operational and safe vehicle than just the engine, trans, and T/C. There's driveshafts, axles, brakes, steering, engine ancillaries, electrical, tires, etc. Thats ignoring any comforts or aesthetics. It all adds up.
A trailer is tires, brakes, simple wiring and simple suspension. Not to mention cost of registration and insurance.
But it sounds to me like you've already made up your mind.
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Re: A vehicular philosophy conundrum: Truck or Trailer...

Post by fulsizjeep »

I am with Josh. 12 years ago I would have said, heck yeah - get the J10! Try bying 31's or bigger for a fleet without refinancing your home. ;)
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88 GW, 401/727/208, 5" lift, D44s/4.10s/locked up, 35s
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Nikkormat
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Re: A vehicular philosophy conundrum: Truck or Trailer...

Post by Nikkormat »

The cost and supply of normal wear items is something we have to live with driving old vehicles. Its the extended wear items that worry me. Because blown engines and transmissions do happen. And I can't just run to the parts store to replace those. I don't want to seem like I've made up my mind. Because I really haven't.

The biggest downside of going to a trailer would be the upgrades needed to support it in a safe daily (if and when necessary) capacity. First thing that would have to go is the custom leaves living in my suspension now. One of the PO's wore the old ones out so they had Denver spring make a set. There really nice and make the jeep a pleasure to drive everyday but they don't like any extra weight beyond the wrenching tools and camping gear I keep it full of. Plus they sit about two inches lower in the back and an inch and a half in the front. New springs for a 74 (since the leaves are unique to this year) will cost me around a grand. Plus some air bags to help level it with the trailer back there puts me at around 1500 in suspension alone. Next is the lack of hitch; and the issue of carrying a spare tire with the hitch. I could make a new under body spare carrier and get a factory hitch but used hitches have a way of making my skin crawl. So I would just get one made down at my school as a custom bumper with a hitch and tire carrier integrated in. Coming in at a cheap $800 or $1200 if I do a front bumper to match. Wiring and aditional cooling would bring me to another $500 at least. So there is 3200 in modifications to make my Cherokee a compromise between a DD and a work truck. Then add in 2500 bucks to buy a nice 10 foot two axle flat bed...

That J10 already has stock springs and towing equipment (if it were to tow) that would bolt on to my Cherokee. Leaving only a hitch to be made. So even if I bought it just for parts I would be at around the same cost. (Again assuming the parts were good ones) and I could further ofset that cost by parting it out.

What about other trucks? Honestly it would need to be something old too. If I can't fix it in a night and limp it to work its no good to me. Having to go and pass emissions? And being a teenager my insurance on anything newer than 1984 is ridiculously expensive. Were talking two grand a year with the amount of miles I put on just commuting for school. No thanks.

So that would leave me with either an old ford high boy (expensive as all get out to purchase here but I'd like to have one) or an old international with less parts availability and the same issue with replacing major drivetrain components.

The 74 would cost me a thousand to get running and reliable assuming nothing in the driveline croaks. And then registering it will cost $200. Insurance for me through my parents plan is $650 bucks a year on the Cherokee and should be the same or less on a half ton truck of the same year.

The trailer would be 150 to register and 500 a year to insure. So it has the upper hand there.
Gabe, "reformed" Jeep hoarder.
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Re: A vehicular philosophy conundrum: Truck or Trailer...

Post by ghcoe »

I pull a 5500lbs travel trailer with the original turbo 400 transmission with a auxiliary trans cooler and a rebuilt motor with 60,000 miles. Everything else is stock 1977 equipment. You do not need beefer springs or air bags just a weight distributing hitch, $200.00 at Harbor Frieght, and a electric brake set up, maybe $100.00. Make sure the cooling system is clean and you should be good to go. Oh, you can still put the spare under the Jeep with the hitch installed. You do not need to keep a engine and transmission hanging around just put some of that money you earn away for such a emergency, should they arise.
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Nikkormat
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Re: A vehicular philosophy conundrum: Truck or Trailer...

Post by Nikkormat »

Really? Every wag I've crawled under has the tire bar hacked up and relocated because the hitch gets in the way of the bolt hole for the rear most end of the carrier. And I hate the way it looks hacked up like that.

The stock springs aren't the issue. Its the Cadillac soft two leaf packs that replaced them. I could put an AAL on the front but that wouldn't work as well on the back. There to fatigued from being undersized. I get 4 inches of droop just sitting on the tailgate. The weight of the hitch would change the ride height by itself.

But that does give me an idea. The issue with replacing rear springs on a 74 is related to the unique spring combination and bushing size. "26 x 26 x 2 1/2 inch springs on the rear (the same as 1962-73). The kicker on the rear springs is that they have a 1 inch post mount instead of a 7/8 inch like the 62-73's." Such rear springs are also used on 70-73 j trucks. AAL's are available for those leafs and they would have the extra weight capacity I seek. So I could gain the ride height and the capacity I want more cheaply than expected.

And what about a van rack for sheet goods and dimensional lumber? That coupled with a little trailer would hold stuff as well as I'd like and be removable should the need arise or if just wanted it to look pretty...

Do you think I could put my a 401 and a transmission in a harbor freight mini trailer?
Gabe, "reformed" Jeep hoarder.

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Re: A vehicular philosophy conundrum: Truck or Trailer...

Post by Nikkormat »

Or what about a military trailer?

http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/4871587459.html
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Re: A vehicular philosophy conundrum: Truck or Trailer...

Post by HOOT »

stay away from the harbor freight trailers for the way you want to use it. They are very cheap made trailers. I own one. It is used only for hauling my extra cab and or truck bed. That way those things stayed mobile because they needed to be moved. Currently it has an extra 1995 crew cab assembly on it parked out back.
If you want to stay all Jeep,and believe me I'm all for it, then set your sights on a J20 between 1976 and 1979. Get one with the 8600 GVWR and drive the piss out of it. Mine was an excellent work truck for quite a few years. It was the front end collision that made me eventually scrap it out. I am building a 1980 J20 now to replace it AND the F350. My 1985 J10 will most likely become a Daily Driver unless I sell it off. My 77 J10 is my toy but may become a daily commuter for me as I only work a few miles from home.
I would steer clear of anything you find out in a field unless it was parked there last week. The cost to replace lower components will kill any deal you get on it. Find a decent running truck for a couple of grand and fix it to daily driver status. The J20 will get rid of the need for a trailer that is always in the way or hard to get into job sites. Rent a trailer if you have to for a day. Home Depot and others have daily rentals some for free use. I'm selling off my car hauler because it is easier to just grab one from U Haul when I need it and not have to worry about where to park it or maintenance on it. Currently it has my 77 J10 on it up at the storage lot at $40 a month. I also have a nice 5x10 well made trailer up there with a spare utility bed on it. when my trailers get unloaded I only plan on keeping the 5x10 and its purpose is to haul rocks for walls. That way I don't need to unload the truck just to get it emptied to drive, park the trailer near the wall I'm building and go.
Those military trailers are nice, get a decent one and it will be a great work horse. Sean has one he has redone and drags it across the mountain passes out there.I have debated selling my 5x10 and getting one myself just for the extra capacity..
1980 and 81 J20 melding into a 1980 Utility bed J20. Project cancelled and for sale, found a factory truck.
1980 J20 Utility truck. Replaced above project.
1977 Honcho getting turned into a 1977 J20 Gladoncho.
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kyamcalvert
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Re: A vehicular philosophy conundrum: Truck or Trailer...

Post by kyamcalvert »

I am in a similar boat...

I'm 22 (read: inexperienced, naive, etc) and probably a lot less mechanically inclined than you are. I love FSJs to death. I have a waggy and an Eagle as daily drivers. I'm an AMC nut. But, when I started demolishing and remodeling my basement, I realized how much hauling lumber, tools, and other misc. building supplies in a waggy truly sucked. I missed having a pickup.

Get a Dodge. Or at least add them to your list. The pre-93 w-series pickups are bulletproof, I can't speak for newer years. I got mine in trade for a truck I paid 400 bucks for. I ended up selling it because I thought I was getting a nice J10, but the dude backed out on me. WORST mistake I've ever made. Bird in the hand = ALWAYS worth 2 in the bush. 318/4 speed/4wd is a GREAT setup for a work truck. Even my super-beat-down-ugliest-pig-ever truck never let me down, hauled any load without complaint, and averaged about 15mpg once tuned up and driven like a grandpa.

My advice is this: quit thinking about things with "Build-Brain". Everything does not have to have a rebuilt motor, fresh suspension, etc, etc, etc. Get an old j-truck that ALREADY RUNS (or you will be sucked into building everything when you fix it, right?), put a solid set of tires on it, and go. I strongly recommend considering a w-series Dodge as a contender. Even with a 727, it will be a great stout work rig. I'm in the camp that will advise against getting something newer for cheap. "It's newer! More creature comforts! Less to repair right now!" <<NEVER ends well for me. Your mileage may vary. I say keep it old school. Don't overthink it. You can get into something for 500 bucks. Promise. Every vehicle I've loved most has been less than a thousand bucks.

Good luck!
Last edited by kyamcalvert on Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Nikkormat
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Re: A vehicular philosophy conundrum: Truck or Trailer...

Post by Nikkormat »

I don't want to replace the motor. I just k ow that at some point in the next 10,20,40,80 years of ownership I will blow a motor at some point. And last time I did it took to long to get a replacement. So I had to either betray my AMC faith and go Chevy or sell the jeep. Next time it happens... And I know it will at some point... I'll have one on hand so that the thought of selling will never have to cross my mind. And so I'm not delayed to terribly in whatever I was trying to do when it blew.

I would add an old W to my list but I have a rule never to buy a car that left me stranded in the past more than once. And them damn dodges have left my grandpa and I stranded twice. Both due to transmission problems. I would do a much older (60's-70's) dodge but only as a half ton with a slant six. And at that point I may as well just get a j10 with the AMC six. As you said, your milage may vary. As ours has with the last generation w series.

That jeep I'm looking at has been in a field for 8 years. So new brakes will definitely be in order. But it looks well taken care of and the motor has been rebuilt at some point. Its hot felpro gaskets and a newer water pump in the pics.

I'm seriously considering a small trailer and j20 rear springs now for the Cherokee along with aal's in the front.
Gabe, "reformed" Jeep hoarder.

kyamcalvert
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Re: A vehicular philosophy conundrum: Truck or Trailer...

Post by kyamcalvert »

Boy, if I lived by that rule I couldn't even ride a bicycle....

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Re: A vehicular philosophy conundrum: Truck or Trailer...

Post by Nikkormat »

Hehehehe well if you can limp it home I don't count it as stranded. But my darned bicycle has left me stranded too.
Gabe, "reformed" Jeep hoarder.

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Re: A vehicular philosophy conundrum: Truck or Trailer...

Post by Nikkormat »

It is very much lengthy.
Gabe, "reformed" Jeep hoarder.

letank
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Re: A vehicular philosophy conundrum: Truck or Trailer...

Post by letank »

kyamcalvert wrote:Boy, if I lived by that rule I couldn't even ride a bicycle....
Ha, ha, ha, or a (self censorship here, it is a family forum) ! When we are talking about being stranded on the side of the road .... I have been kicked out of a vehicle a few times, and so did she.... a nice way to overcome self censorship.

Driving a classic, you have to expect to be stranded, as said once, it is not IF but WHEN! Be prepared and expect a surprise.

On the first Ouray trip in 02 we had over 125 years of mechanical behemoths, and nothing really serious happened, no vapor locking, my brake pads wore out sometime on the return trip, the top radiator hose developped an hernia in Bryce canyon, spectacular, almost the size of a big gulp, yes it pays to pop the hood up when the engine is hot.
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)

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Nikkormat
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Re: A vehicular philosophy conundrum: Truck or Trailer...

Post by Nikkormat »

Ah great. Now ya made me all paranoid about my hoses...
Gabe, "reformed" Jeep hoarder.

letank
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Re: A vehicular philosophy conundrum: Truck or Trailer...

Post by letank »

Nikkormat wrote:Ah great. Now ya made me all paranoid about my hoses...
Remember that hose is another 4 letter word, at least on FSJs they are very easy to monitor and change.

Some of the german cars are a plain headache to replace, even the pro say, you can wait on that one, we do not like to change them unless it is really dripping.
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)
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