Are mechanics and shops just getting lazy these days ?

[candymancan]

Im not that old and ive honestly always worked on my Jeeps. Never had a shop do anything EXCEPT when i first got my 5.9 ZJ i had the Jeep dealership fix a stripped caliper bolt. Only to find out a year later when i learned how to do my brakes that they never fixed it they just took my money. Which is what got me started working on things myself because after that i just didnt trust mechanics anymore.


Anyway, my beef is this. Ive been working on my 5.9 zj my moms 4.0 zj, and friends cars for 7 years now. My 90 GW the last year ina half has been non stop restoration/repairs. Latetly ive been doing upgrades to it which is more fun. Im tired of working on it and when i did my 4 new leaf springs which took me 3-4 days laying on hot pavement cutting bolts and brackets off i got too tired to do the 4th one. So i called around and went to some shops and one was a custom suspension shop where all they do is work on suspensions and thats all they brag about. I went there and they told me no because of the age of the vehicle. Liability things break they told me which is what ive been hearing from pretty much anyone. That kinda irritated me so i actually wrote them a bad review on Yelp steering people away because they only wanna work on new cars the guy said so why not let people know i thought.

I had the same issue when i found my exhaust manifold was leaking. No one wants to touch it, even on my 98 5.9 ZJ i wanted headers like 4-5 years ago and no one would touch it. My transmission on the wagoneer has been leaking day 1. The shift linkage shaft seal. Its been getting worse.. to where it drips every 2-3 seconds when i watch it and it fills up my 8 quart oil pan every month. I have to put a whole quart in every week or less. Im tired of working on it myself and i figured why not call a transmission shop. Of course i get the same run around from transmission SHOPS.. they dont want to touch it because of the age.

Like really.. Isnt this what insurance is for.. and why be a mechanic if youre afraid of liability.. . So like everything else i guess i have to tackle the seal myself im just not sure if i should remove the two front seats and the carpet and clean off the goop on the pan making a mess to get it from the top.. Or drop the valve body..

Is it like this where you guys are ? Seems no one wants to touch a vehicle that 10 years old or older

[weeegoneeer]

Had this happen to me at multiple shops, and often wasn't happy with the work done from the shops that would do the work. I think that the knowledge of how to work on these older rigs is going away with retirement of the old guard.

Makes sense though - why train up a mechanic to work on older cars that probably represent 1% of the vehicles they would be working on?

[44bz]

I've taken my jeep to the same shop twice - first time to have the brakes bled and adjusted after I replaced everything, and the second time to replace a leaking pinion seal because I couldn't get the pinion nut off. The only reason I chose that particular shop is because one of the mechanics drove a lifted cj so I kind of assumed that at least someone there knows older jeeps. Plus each time I gone in there everyone ogles the jeep so I figure if they like it, they'll take care of it - hopefully...


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[fulsizjeep]

It has been years since I dropped a FSJ off for work at a shop. AAMCO was the last time around 20 years ago for a tranny overhaul. What a disappointment that ordeal was. My Wag is 30 years old now and I'll work on it when I am dayum good and ready.

[AwesomeJ10]

I"m not sure that 'good' mechanics actually exist anymore. I guess there are a few out there, but I sure don't hear about them.

[montanablueSJ]

I've had many bad experiences with shops doing work on my vehicles, just can't trust people anymore to do a good job. I think it might be that they see an older vehicle and just don't care, or that I've had bad luck, or mechanics are getting dumb and careless. I've learned that the old saying is especially true on cars, especially older: if you want it done right, then you have to do it yourself. No shop is going to take the time and care you would. Things like scraping off dirt and rust, properly cleaning old parts caked in mud/oil, properly lubing bolts so they don't snap off, painting and greasing, just take too long and they are not going to spend that extra time on you. There are a couple things I still can't do myself because of lack of proper tools. Those are things like changing and balancing tires. Even then, I take the wheels off myself and bring them in to the shop (Don't trust them on my lug nut studs). I also have a shop replace windshields, but that is about it.
A couple years ago, when I was getting ready for a trip, I had a front axle that needed rebuilding (bearings, seals, etc.). I decided to bring it in to a shop to have the work done since I was out of time to do it myself. That was a small decision that had drastic consequences. I ended up going back several times to fix the shoddy work they did. 2 new tires, an axle shaft and pinion seal, and 2 new locking hubs later, not to mention the headache of going back and forth to drop off and pick up the vehicle.

[Kaiserman]

There isn't any money to be made in replacing a shift shaft seal. Mark up on a $2.99 seal isn't going to make any shop money. The job will be mostly labor. And in the same amount of time it will take them to replace that $2.99 seal they could be doing several much better paying jobs.

As for headers, you will be hard pressed to find a shop that wants to start installing custom parts. It always almost ends up taking more time than it should, and if you brought the parts the shop makes no money off parts. So again, the time they spend on your Jeep is a loss of profit for them as they could have done several other better paying jobs in the same time.

I'd hunt around for a non chain type of shop that doesn't looked backed up with work.

[Kaiserman]

BTW, if your not a regular customer and you being in a job the shop knows is going to be a PITA with out much return, they are significantly more likely to turn the job down.

[tedlovesjeeps71]

Finding a shop to work on older stuff is a challenge. Look for a hotrod or restoration place that has a jeep or two. You'll likely pay a premium for them to work on your stuff because they are a low volume, specialty shop. The down side is cost. The up side is they are usually more OCD and take their time.
As someone currently in school for automotive but having no desire to enter the general industry I will say I wouldn't trust any of my fellow students to work on my stuff. It's frightening how many of them have mental issues (usually anger related) or drug/alcohol habits. These folks are not likely to last long in a dealership environment but will probably end up in local tire/lube joints or small shops with low standards and shady practices.


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[az chip]

Not sure where you are. Is there possibly a 4x4 shop around you? One of those should be able to help. I just an AMC restoration shop in the Phoenix area. They do engines as well.

[Tatsadasayago]

It's the way of things nowdays. Most auto repair shops are after cash-flow and volume so when you bring in a 'Foreign' vehicle to them they are going to freak. It's a matter of liability because the techs have likely never set eyes on an FSJ let alone worked on one and the likelihood of a mistake or too much time spent on a procedure makes them unattractive to the average Slam-N-Jam/Parts-Hanger shop.
Sadly, those who have the knowledge and experience with FSJs, Internationals, Old Mopar, GM and Ford rigs are dying off without passing on their craft to the next generation is growing.
As an example:
My Brother Ray works at J&W Jeep here in Sacramento. He's been wrenching on Jeeps, Mopars and those 'Other' brands for 40 years and knows his stuff. His son Justin is following in his footsteps and hopefully will learn everything his dad can teach him. This will keep the oddball FSJs as well as those funky girly jeeps like XJs, YJs, JKs and WTFJs going long after most repair shops will shy away from these vehicles.
So if you can't handle a repair on your ride, I suggest you do some searching around to find that 'Old Guy' who knows your rig and pay him well to work on it.

[candymancan]

i didnt say i cant handle it. you know what ive done to this Jeep lol.. I just am getting burned out. if i have thr money and willing to pay.. why cabt i find a shop to replace a stupid seal or the 4th leaf spring for example.. had to do that 4th one nyself.

sometimes laying on hot pavement in 95f weather with 90% humidity sucks.. i have no garage.

just is frustrating.. the mechanics i talk too are just huge pussies it seems like. Its ok Ill do the seal this fall when it cools down.. And yes all the reasons you guys stated is why ive worked on my own vehicles. Its fun for one until you get burned out lol, but two is because you save a lot of money, but 3 is because you know how you did it and you take your time and do it right, and if you mess up you know where and how you messed up and fix it.

I agree though its like my tint for example. I tinted all the windows 15% cept windshield of course. Every shop i brought it too was very intimidated when i say Grand Wagoneer everyone thinks grand cherokee. You know how everyone calls a grand cherokee a cherokee, because they are too stupid to note the difference. Then when i brought it in they are like.. ooh... Its too hard wahhh wahhh cry babies. I almost did the tint myself and i dont see how hard it could be with flat straight vertical windows.. once you cut the inside seals on the quarter panels you can make the tint not have sun bleed through.. Found a shop to do it and at normal price but they took like 4 hrs to do it and messed up on 3 windows and had to spend another 4 hours to do it right.. But at least they didnt complain and actually were nice about it.

I dunno, just seems all people want to do is work on brand new fresh 1-5 year old vehicles. And youre right Like tint shops they just want volume more new cars to fix quickly more money.

As for replacing a 2.99$ seal, if you complain about replacing a leak which happens i say again dont be a mechanic dont own a shop.. thats irritating. That was kinda the last transmission shops response.. I laughed at him and i was like dont you make money by charging me labor too. the frack man.. Plus after i was done talking to them i realized its better if i do it myself anyway. These shops here in NOVA charge on average $120 an hour and for a simple transmission pan drop they charge $250.. And shops i noticed cry foul when you have your own parts and fluid.. Thats another reason i dont do fluid changes. They use whatever they have.. i doubt half the shops could careless what it actually requires.. Dexron 3 is pretty common i think well maybe not so much anymore as new vehicles use better stuff. But i would almost be afraid of them putting in ATF4 which is bad for these 727s because they figure its a chrysler vehicle. I told one guy i wanted dexron 3 only and he almost BEEP on the phone saying we use our own fluid..

LOL thats just silly


Reminds me when i didnt know how to weld. I found a rusted hole on my 5.9 ZJ passenger side.. a door seal was leaking and because these "newer" carpets have a plastic tarp glued to them if water is down there it never dries.. and you never know if its wet.. So i pealed up the carpet and found a giant hole. size of a soda can.. I cut it out and frame rail had pitting.. cleaned it off but i dont know how to weld. So brought it to welding body shops. They didnt wanna touch it mainly because i did all the work already and had the steel already lol. It wasnt worth their time welding a square plate.. I finally found a shop who asked a welder how much hed do it. He wanted $100 to weld a square plate maybe 5x5 in size. He put the plate over top banged it to shape and right before he started to weld.. Im like hey arent you going to weld prime my frame and the metal first before you weld and cover up exposed metal.. SO grabs the welders primer and paints the frame the metal is going to sit on. Then he makes tack welds all around. and he only tack welds 2-3 tacks on two sides of the square. Then puts maybe 6-7 on the other two sides.. Not filling any gaps in.. and then sprays rubberized coating and calls it done.

Im like really ? So when i drive down the road in water all that water will spray right through the unwelded or sealed cracks.. When i got home i had to clean the uncoat off and use seam sealer to seal it and then paint it and then undercoat.. Pissed me off. Thats why when i got my wagoneer i bought that 90A flux welder from harbor freight and learned to weld myself. Saved a ton of money

[Kaiserman]

As for replacing a 2.99$ seal, if you complain about replacing a leak which happens i say again dont be a mechanic dont own a shop.. thats irritating. That was kinda the last transmission shops response.. I laughed at him and i was like dont you make money by charging me labor too.

It's not that it's annoying to replace a cheap, small part, it's annoying to replace a cheap, small part and have to turn down or reschedule four brake jobs because your busy replacing that cheap, small part that isn't making you much money.

And unless labor is priced very high (all of our customers would leave us if we where getting $120 and hour) you don't make money off labor. It pays the employees and over head of the shop. The real money maker is parts.

We also don't like it when people bring in their own parts. They are usually cheap parts, and when then fail they think it's our fault. Last time I put in a customer supplied part (knock sensor on a 2000 something Nissan...under the intake manifold) it was dead and threw a could immediately. Very cheap ebay sensor. Had to tell the customer he needed a new sensor, and that he would have to pay for the labor again. If it had been a part we supplied we would have eaten the labor.

Remember, a repair shop is there to make money, not help people out with their hobby vehicles. If the job doesn't make any money and keeps one from taking jobs that will make money, why that that job?

Replacing a shift shaft seal for a random guy that walks in the door is filler work for when a shop isn't busy.

[Kaiserman]

As for replacing a 2.99$ seal, if you complain about replacing a leak which happens i say again dont be a mechanic dont own a shop.. thats irritating. That was kinda the last transmission shops response.. I laughed at him and i was like dont you make money by charging me labor too.

It's not that it's annoying to replace a cheap, small part, it's annoying to replace a cheap, small part and have to turn down or reschedule four brake jobs because your busy replacing that cheap, small part that isn't making you much money. It takes a while to properly replace that seal.

And unless labor is priced very high (all of our customers would leave us if we where getting $120 and hour) you don't make money off labor. It pays the employees and over head of the shop. The real money maker is parts.

We also don't like it when people bring in their own parts. They are usually cheap parts, and when then fail they think it's our fault. Last time I put in a customer supplied part (knock sensor on a 2000 something Nissan...under the intake manifold) it was dead and threw a could immediately. Very cheap ebay sensor. Had to tell the customer he needed a new sensor, and that he would have to pay for the labor again. If it had been a part we supplied we would have eaten the labor.

Remember, a repair shop is there to make money, not help people out with their hobby vehicles. If the job doesn't make any money and keeps one from taking jobs that will make money, why that that job?

Replacing a shift shaft seal for a random guy that walks in the door is filler work for when a shop isn't busy.

[candymancan]

ah ok so every vehicle that needs a 50$ sensor or 5$ gasket replaced you just say BEEP off im too busy replacing brakes and charging 400 to do it.

Sounds like a BEEPY shop to me

[SJTD]

As I recall you do landscape maint.

Say a guy has a tiny lawn that's nowhere near you or any of your other jobs. Takes you longer to unload/reload the mower than to do the work.

You going to mow his lawn?

[Kaiserman]

ah ok so every vehicle that needs a 50$ sensor or 5$ gasket replaced you just say BEEP off im too busy replacing brakes and charging 400 to do it.

Sounds like a BEEPY shop to me

Sounds like you don't know how a for profit business works.

We'll fix something that won't make us money.....if we literally have nothing else to do (it's called filler work) or if it's a regular customer.

Most (all?) shops are like this, always have been. No busy shop is going to take a job that won't make them much (if any money) in place of better paying jobs. Unless it's for an established customer, then it's just something that has to be done.

If you came in with your Wagoneer and we' took the job, we'd have to fit it into our schedule when we weren't busy, or tell you to leave the thing with us for a week and we'd get to it when we could. And you'd be paying full book time for it.

Though to be honest, it's a 50/50 chance my boss would just tell you we are too busy.

Because:

A: It's a PITA job that will really only pay us labor, and labor barely pays our overhead
B: We will actually lose money fixing your Jeep because of other jobs we aren't doing that would make us money (on parts)
C: Your a random person we've never seen before that wants a PITA job done that won't make us money.

[Tatsadasayago]

As I recall you do landscape maint.

Say a guy has a tiny lawn that's nowhere near you or any of your other jobs. Takes you longer to unload/reload the mower than to do the work.

You going to mow his lawn?

In contrast to your scenario:
I owned two very successful auto repair shops and I went against the trend and accepted some truly off-the-wall jobs such as putting a Ford GT40 engine in an 80c Merc Cougar coupe, a 427 SOHC into a 68 F-250, shoehorning a 351C into a 78 Mustang and a 426 Mopar Hemi into a Jeep Scrambler. I didn't make much money off those jobs, but in a smallish Montana town where word-of-mouth was key, I more than made up for this type of stuff with steady business. Sometimes you have to work for peanuts so you can earn those gravy jobs. That being said, I did realize I should have turned those oddball jobs away and focused on the cashflow...but I have always been a hardhead.

[HeavyMetalThunder_81]

It's not that it's annoying to replace a cheap, small part, it's annoying to replace a cheap, small part and have to turn down or reschedule four brake jobs because your busy replacing that cheap, small part that isn't making you much money.

And unless labor is priced very high (all of our customers would leave us if we where getting $120 and hour) you don't make money off labor. It pays the employees and over head of the shop. The real money maker is parts.

We also don't like it when people bring in their own parts. They are usually cheap parts, and when then fail they think it's our fault. Last time I put in a customer supplied part (knock sensor on a 2000 something Nissan...under the intake manifold) it was dead and threw a could immediately. Very cheap ebay sensor. Had to tell the customer he needed a new sensor, and that he would have to pay for the labor again. If it had been a part we supplied we would have eaten the labor.

Remember, a repair shop is there to make money, not help people out with their hobby vehicles. If the job doesn't make any money and keeps one from taking jobs that will make money, why that that job?

Replacing a shift shaft seal for a random guy that walks in the door is filler work for when a shop isn't busy.

Sounds like you don't know how a for profit business works.

We'll fix something that won't make us money.....if we literally have nothing else to do (it's called filler work) or if it's a regular customer.

Most (all?) shops are like this, always have been. No busy shop is going to take a job that won't make them much (if any money) in place of better paying jobs. Unless it's for an established customer, then it's just something that has to be done.

If you came in with your Wagoneer and we' took the job, we'd have to fit it into our schedule when we weren't busy, or tell you to leave the thing with us for a week and we'd get to it when we could. And you'd be paying full book time for it.

Though to be honest, it's a 50/50 chance my boss would just tell you we are too busy.

Because:

A: It's a PITA job that will really only pay us labor, and labor barely pays our overhead
B: We will actually lose money fixing your Jeep because of other jobs we aren't doing that would make us money (on parts)
C: Your a random person we've never seen before that wants a PITA job done that won't make us money.

^^^THIS^^^

Coming from someone who worked that field and may be returning to it soon I couldn't have said it better myself. I saw this all the time. We would even charge $10 more an hour if someone brought in their own parts. We can't warranty that part or labor if/when it fails.

Let me ask one more question. You wouldn't go to a steakhouse with your own steak and demand them to cook it would you?

[Kaiserman]

I owned two very successful auto repair shops and I went against the trend and accepted some truly off-the-wall jobs such as putting a Ford GT40 engine in an 80c Merc Cougar coupe, a 427 SOHC into a 68 F-250, shoehorning a 351C into a 78 Mustang and a 426 Mopar Hemi into a Jeep Scrambler.

Makes swapping a carbed 351/C6 into the 1992 F150 4x4 Step side I have in my bay right now sound like a piece of cake by comparison. We take weird jobs like that from time to time.