Intro And Question (Forwarned Its Long :)

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Tatsadasayago
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Re: Intro And Question (Forwarned Its Long :)

Post by Tatsadasayago »

Oh, and since the Howell kit uses the GM 4777 ECM, you can get an ALDL adapter cable and check it's status and levels with a PC laptop. A very well spent 100.00!
1977 Cherokee Chief - The Blair Jeep Project III
A collection of parts flying in close formation
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Shwag
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Re: Intro And Question (Forwarned Its Long :)

Post by Shwag »

Thanks Tatsadasayago for articulating this in a manner that I was not able. As I've stated previously, this stuff is all new to me but it seems like putting an ohmmeter to the coolant sensor (or however one would test to ensure its functioning correctly) and moving the O2 sensor to its proper location would be good places to start. Thanks again!
Tatsadasayago wrote:Like a GM TBI system, the ECM will only go into closed loop when the engine coolant temp sensor reaches 140-160 degrees and the O2 sensor either reaches a certain temp or begins sending a minimum voltage to it. Your kit should have a Heated EGO sensor by the way.
The old school trick to confirm closed loop was to connect a timing light then give the block or head a nice little swat with a hammer. If the ECM was in closed loop the timing would retard every time the hammer struck. :)

You are correct that the O2 sensor is way too far down the pipe to get an accurate reading. IIRC the sensor the Howell system uses works best when it's within 2-3 inches of the header flange. Add that to possible A.I.R. and EGR gasses entering the exhaust, it's easy to see why the ECM is seeing a lean condition. Placing the O2 sensor on one side of the engine is common on TBI engines. The assumption is that the opposite bank of cylinders are running the same.
06 LR RR | 86 GW AMC 360 Howell TBI, Edelbrock Performance Intake| 79 BMW R100S
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Shwag
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Re: Intro And Question (Forwarned Its Long :)

Post by Shwag »

Will do! Thanks
Tatsadasayago wrote:Oh, and since the Howell kit uses the GM 4777 ECM, you can get an ALDL adapter cable and check it's status and levels with a PC laptop. A very well spent 100.00!
06 LR RR | 86 GW AMC 360 Howell TBI, Edelbrock Performance Intake| 79 BMW R100S
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Shwag
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Re: Intro And Question (Forwarned Its Long :) **UPDATE**

Post by Shwag »

So last Friday I picked up the waggy from the second mechanic. He noted the following issues that he believed could potentially correct the high CO readings:

EVAP system hoses attached to a manifold vacuum source on the intake manifold.
EGR system connect to the same manifold source.
Checked the coolant temp sensor and manifold pressure sensor and both were fine.
Installed a metal fuel line due to the fact that the old rubber hose was laying against the exhaust manifold.


He didn’t get a chance to re-sniff it at that point so I told him I would do it. As soon as I drove off I noticed something wasn’t right. The response from the gas pedal was horrible. It ran as bad as when I first drove it with the old carb on it. I drove home (about 12 miles) and as soon as I got off the freeway it died. Restarted it and drove a couple of blocks home.

The next day I decided to take it for a quick spin to the local Petsmart and it cut off again. When I made it there I noticed that coolant was dripping from the radiator, which was a first. It cut off two more times on the way home. Each time was when I was coming to a stop.

I described my problem to a buddy I work with and he asked what was the fuel pressure like. I told him I have no idea and he recommended I install a gauge so that I could see if there was enough pressure. Yesterday I installed the gauge and it read 5PSI at idle. I realized this was an issue but I didn’t see how it was related to my smog problem. My buddy suggested I put the gauge right after the pump to make sure it wasn’t the line and go from there.

At this point I hadn’t had it sniffed. The plan was to take it to my friend’s shop and try and figure out why I wasn’t getting proper pressure. Since the smog shop he uses is next door we decided to test it real quick to see if the changes that were made the previous week made a difference. They did not. CO through the roof at idle and dropped about half when given gas.

At that point I was bummed and told my buddy we need to call Howell and figure out what the deal is. He suggested I forward all the info I had regarding what was done including the readings from the previous sniff test and then he’d forward it to them and give them a call to troubleshoot.

I couldn’t wait so I called them this morning and went over everything that was done with the TBI and what was happening with the smog. The tech initially was thinking that it had to do with the ignition coil and distributor, until I told him about the low PSI readings. He immediately said that’s your problem. He said the O2 sensor (not sure how) believes the engine is running too lean and it’s having the computer dump fuel into it. He didn’t think it was related to their pump because he said they’re really good with quality control but told me to start with that. After explaining what the tech said to a couple of buddies they said that I may need to drop the tank and check some things. So I’ll be scouring the Internet to see if this is something I can do myself because I am TAPPED financially at this point. Hopefully this solves my problem though and I can finally get this thing registered and on the road!

BTW the fuel pressure thing may have been the main issue from the jump as I remember my buddy saying that it wasn't getting fuel to the TBI after he installed it.
06 LR RR | 86 GW AMC 360 Howell TBI, Edelbrock Performance Intake| 79 BMW R100S
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Shwag
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Re: Intro And Question (Forwarned Its Long :)

Post by Shwag »

So for those of you who have been following along, the fuel tank was perfect and the lines were clear. The pump was fine. I had hooked up the fuel gauge to the wrong hose. As much as it hurts to disclose that I want to put out as much information as possible in hopes that it can help troubleshoot my issues. Car issues that is :-bd . So back to the mechanic it went.

He (Mike) checked the TBI setup again and believed something was wrong with either the throttle body unit or the ECM. So I called Howell up and explained to the tech (Troy) where we were at. Troy said have Mike give him a call with his scanner hooked up so they could troubleshoot. The first issue discovered was that the O2 sensor was bad. Once that was installed (a few days later) the error codes pointed to something being up with the throttle body unit itself. A few days later Mike discovered the diaphragm (not sure about the technical terms) was ripped and some sort of adjustment screw wasn't functioning as should.
Old Unit. The rubber diaphragm was ripped. Its hard to see, but underneath the diaphragm is a back bowl with an adjustment screw. That wasn't function properly due to something not being welded properly.
Image

So Howell sent a new unit and a week later that was installed. We got to the point where there were no more error codes and according to Mike it was running a whole lot better, so he dropped it off at the smog place to have it sniffed again. CO #s were down but the NOx #s were still too high. They tested the CAT and found out that wasn't working. That whole process took over a month :banghead:

Believing that all was fine I picked up the rig last Thursday. It definitely drove better although I didn't have much to compare it with simply because it's been in the shop pretty much since I bought it. :ugeek: There still didn't seem to be much power and the response from the gas pedal didn't seem to be what it should. First thing Friday morning I took it in to get a new CAT and muffler.
Image

When they backed it out of the bay you could hear a knocking sound coming from the engine. This was new. Plan was to take it down to the smog shop and hopefully pass and worry about the knocking later. As I headed over, the knocking became worse. I did notice a considerable amount of power with the new exhaust as the old muffler was full of something (probably the honeycomb from the CAT) but still not as responsive to gas as I imagine it should be. As soon as I got to the smog shop they said something was up. Perhaps its misfiring or a stuck lifter. Whatever it was it needed to be fixed first.

This is what led me to last post. After Googling my issues I figured I'd try an oil change with some Marvel Mystery oil and replace the plugs. Unfortunately the knocking (while not as pronounced) is still there.

Looking at the plugs they definitely needed to be changed. There were only two (5/7) that appeared to have oil 3/4 of the way on the threads. The rest were dry all the way through. I'll try and get pics of the plugs on the other thread later on.

Not sure if there is a link between getting a new CAT/Muffler and the knocking or if its just happen to be the next issue up. Trying not to dwell on it too much because it's driving me crazy.
06 LR RR | 86 GW AMC 360 Howell TBI, Edelbrock Performance Intake| 79 BMW R100S

bkilby
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Re: Intro And Question (Forwarned Its Long :)

Post by bkilby »

Geez, what a PIA you're going through. Sorry to hear. Where in SoCal are you located?
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Cheapthrills
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Re: Intro And Question (Forwarned Its Long :)

Post by Cheapthrills »

Dang buddy what an ordeal, very frustrating I'm sure... just keep it up and you'll be happy in the end.... beautiful jeep by the way... makes both of mine look like hammered poop

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Shwag
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Re: Intro And Question (Forwarned Its Long :)

Post by Shwag »

Thanks man. I'm down in San Diego.
bkilby wrote:Geez, what a PIA you're going through. Sorry to hear. Where in SoCal are you located?
06 LR RR | 86 GW AMC 360 Howell TBI, Edelbrock Performance Intake| 79 BMW R100S
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Shwag
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Re: Intro And Question (Forwarned Its Long :)

Post by Shwag »

Yeah man. I'm over to the point where it's actually become comical :P . But I keep telling myself it will be all worth it once I hit the trails. Thanks
Cheapthrills wrote:Dang buddy what an ordeal, very frustrating I'm sure... just keep it up and you'll be happy in the end.... beautiful jeep by the way... makes both of mine look like hammered poop

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
06 LR RR | 86 GW AMC 360 Howell TBI, Edelbrock Performance Intake| 79 BMW R100S
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Shwag
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Re: Intro And Question (Forwarned Its Long :)

Post by Shwag »

Just a quick update...back in April I had the Waggy towed to a shop to have the engine rebuilt. It turns out the camshaft was the issue. The agreement I had with the owner was to allow him time to work on it between various jobs. He's been super busy as their shop builds and leases race engines. So I'm hoping that it will be back with me soon.

On another note, while surfing the net I ran across a familiar looking Jeep. As I dug deeper I was able to locate a write-up on it via BaT. While they weren't the listing site, their write-up on it provided additional background info that I previously did not have, such as; a roof|hood repaint, newer radiator, water pump, fan clutch, air pump, and hoses. I had tried contacting the PO with no luck so it was good to get at least some more background info on it.
https://bringatrailer.com/2016/06/01/ni ... -wagoneer/

I had to chuckle reading some of the comments.

As soon as I get a chance I'll upload some pics of the engine rebuild.
06 LR RR | 86 GW AMC 360 Howell TBI, Edelbrock Performance Intake| 79 BMW R100S
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Shwag
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Re: Intro And Question (Forwarned Its Long :)

Post by Shwag »

Just a quick update...back in April I had the Waggy towed to a shop to have the engine rebuilt. It turns out the camshaft was the issue. The agreement I had with the owner was to allow him time to work on it between various jobs. He's been super busy as his shop builds and leases race engines. But I'm hoping that it will be back with me soon at which point I plan on meeting up with Tony to go over and fine-tune the Howell system.

On another note, while surfing the net I ran across a familiar looking Jeep. As I dug deeper I was able to locate a write-up on it via BaT. While they weren't the listing site, their write-up on it provided additional background info that I previously did not have, such as; a roof|hood repaint, newer radiator, water pump, fan clutch, air pump, and hoses. I had tried contacting the PO with no luck so it was good to get at least some more background info on it.
https://bringatrailer.com/2016/06/01/ni ... -wagoneer/

I had to chuckle reading some of the comments.

As soon as I get a chance I'll upload some pics of the engine rebuild.
06 LR RR | 86 GW AMC 360 Howell TBI, Edelbrock Performance Intake| 79 BMW R100S
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Shwag
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Re: Intro And Question (Forwarned Its Long :)

Post by Shwag »

Well it took longer than what was expected, but I was finally able to pick the Wagon up yesterday from the shop. Headed straight to get it tested and thankfully it passed the emissions test!unfortunately the power steering hosed up on me a block from my home but I was able to complete my registration and pick up my plates!!

I tried unsuccessfully to post pics using Tapatalk, so instead through a quick video up to share. Thanks again to all who chimmed in trying to help resolve the issues early on.

https://youtu.be/JmMoO97cVyM
06 LR RR | 86 GW AMC 360 Howell TBI, Edelbrock Performance Intake| 79 BMW R100S

KJ Ryu
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Re: Intro And Question (Forwarned Its Long :)

Post by KJ Ryu »

Nice. Love the plates!
Ron

2005 KJ, Hit-n-Run, 2am 6-17-2012, Totaled. :mad:
1977 SJ J10, 4v360, T18, D20, 37x14s, SOA & SF on tons, still ugly.
1978 SJ Wagoneer, 4v360, QT, 33x12.5s, lift by Sawzall :-bd NOT Running :(
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REDONE
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Re: Intro And Question (Forwarned Its Long :)

Post by REDONE »

Awesome! Also like the song for the vid, even though I don't like my whiskey to taste like anything but whiskey, haha!
79 J-10 (Honcho Mucho) KE0LSU
304/Performance Fuel Injection TBI/MTA1/SP2P/Magnum rockers
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Shwag
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Re: Intro And Question (Forwarned Its Long :)

Post by Shwag »

KJ Ryu wrote:Nice. Love the plates!
Thanks!
06 LR RR | 86 GW AMC 360 Howell TBI, Edelbrock Performance Intake| 79 BMW R100S
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Shwag
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Re: Intro And Question (Forwarned Its Long :)

Post by Shwag »

REDONE wrote:Awesome! Also like the song for the vid, even though I don't like my whiskey to taste like anything but whiskey, haha!
Haha. As you should!
06 LR RR | 86 GW AMC 360 Howell TBI, Edelbrock Performance Intake| 79 BMW R100S
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