Heavy towing with a Jtruck?

[derf]

I've been modifying my J10 to act as a tow rig for my CJ. I swapped in J20 axles with the Chevy JB7 heavy duty brakes up front and a disc brake conversion in the rear. I'm going to be modifying an air spring setup to handle the extra tongue weight and I'll probably box the frame a little around the mounts I build for extra frame strength.

But with all that I'm still only going to tow a trailer that is only a 7,000 pound GTW capacity trailer and it has trailer brakes on all 4 wheels.

[nc wagoneer]

I don't want to start a war here but with my personal experience being in an area where its mostly farms and diesel trucks. I will put my 2 cents in. If your looking to stay on the cheap avoid the diesels like you planned. I've heard many bad stories about powerstrokes and the older ford idi diesels and had personal experience too. They are money pits. We've had pretty good luck with gm 6.2/6.5's, but I've heard bad of them too. And I know people that swear by cummins trucks but the people who have them absolutely hate when a problem does occur because it costs a small fortune. Stay with a gasser and 5mpg or less or be prepared to spend as much or more than you pay for a diesel truck to fix its known and unknown issues before they happen!!!

Sent from my Motorola Moto X

[Kaiserman]

The M715 frame isnt much different from a J20 frame in terms of strength. The M715 was stronger than the standard Gladiator frame, but mostly only in the spring mount department. And while it was rated 1.25 ton for the day, to todays standards is barely a half ton.

The J20 will easily tow just your J10 with a good hitch and brake upgrade. Well, and ditch the 4.3L.

The M715 frame is boxed to about the back of the cab, has a much heavier duty rear crossmember that has heavy angle braces connecting it to the frame rails and reinforced rear spring hangers (more or less backing plates that are welded to the posts and the frame rail). They are a fair amount beefier that any of the civilian Jeep truck frames. The rear crossmember is made to mount a pintle hitch with no mods. The transmission crossmember is also of a heavier duty design.

What exactly is "barely 1/2 ton" about them (by any standards)? The D70 rear? The D60 front that hardly ever gives anyone troubles? The NP200 (about as strong as the NP205) or the T98A trans that was used in 2 ton dump trucks? It's certainly not the HD springs.

The only weak link I see is the four wheel drums, but those are still plenty capable.

[carnuck]

I was just looking for that pic showing them side by side. I think mine were lost in my old computer's meltdown.

[Kaiserman]

A 1973 J-4800 camper special was rated for 11,000 pounds when optioned right.

Dual rear wheels AND a Dana 60 rear were a large part of it. The rear springs were beefed up as well.
I have an in-box fifth wheel setup that would work for that (used it in my '73 J4000 just before I rolled it)

The Camper Trucks (not Camper Specials) only came in single rear wheel. Not sure where the 11K figure came from, I've never seen a tow rating listed but I doubt it's really 11K lbs. The later J20's with 3500lb fronts (vs the Camper Trucks 3000lbs) and disc brakes with 12x2.5" rear drums are only rated for 10K.

[carnuck]

The 2 campers I've seen here had full float rear D54s with dual and 8 lug front drums.

http://www.txfsja.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=16

[Kaiserman]

The 2 campers I've seen here had full float rear D54s with dual and 8 lug front drums.

http://www.txfsja.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=16

Those aren't the same as what FSJunkie or I where talking about. He was talking about J3800/J4800 SRW Camper Trucks.

The Jeep in your could be considered camper specials. They where factory stretched dually's and have 6 lug Dana 70 rears and 6 lug Dana 44 fronts. 6 on 7.25", same as the M715's. If I recall correctly the early 6cyl dually's where rated for 7500lbs towing. I would assume the camper mod. would decrease that. The factory Jeep J3800/J4800 and factory DRW's also have beefed up rear spring hangers and reinforcing straps welded to the top and bottom of the frame rails. Like 80/90's Ford 1 ton LWB trucks do.

[Stuka]

The M715 frame isnt much different from a J20 frame in terms of strength. The M715 was stronger than the standard Gladiator frame, but mostly only in the spring mount department. And while it was rated 1.25 ton for the day, to todays standards is barely a half ton.

The J20 will easily tow just your J10 with a good hitch and brake upgrade. Well, and ditch the 4.3L.

The M715 frame is boxed to about the back of the cab, has a much heavier duty rear crossmember that has heavy angle braces connecting it to the frame rails and reinforced rear spring hangers (more or less backing plates that are welded to the posts and the frame rail). They are a fair amount beefier that any of the civilian Jeep truck frames. The rear crossmember is made to mount a pintle hitch with no mods. The transmission crossmember is also of a heavier duty design.

What exactly is "barely 1/2 ton" about them (by any standards)? The D70 rear? The D60 front that hardly ever gives anyone troubles? The NP200 (about as strong as the NP205) or the T98A trans that was used in 2 ton dump trucks? It's certainly not the HD springs.

The only weak link I see is the four wheel drums, but those are still plenty capable.

I was stating by todays standards, 3/4 ton trucks of 30-40 years ago are less capable than todays 1/2 ton trucks. Frames today are significantly stronger. Not just because they are fully boxed with better designs, but because the metallurgy today is significantly better. High strength steel has greatly improved what todays trucks can do. You can go buy a Ram 3500 that is capable of 30,000lbs towing. 1/2 ton trucks are rated at 10-12k pounds. And these are using much better defined towing standards. Toyota and now the new Ford F150 both use the J2807 towing standard. And of course most new trucks have built in trailer sway control.

The M715 had great parts for the era. But technology has come a VERY long way. And old and new just cannot be compared based on their original weight rating.

[TUDrewser]

Heck, our 08 Sequoia is rated for 10k towing.

[FSJunkie]

The J-4800 is an SRW townside 8000 GVW pickup model. No factory DRW models after 1968-69 ish. The factory DRW's were on the J-200/2000 and J-300/3000 chassis and had an 8600 GVW. They could not be had with a pickup box, only with a flat bed, platform stake, bare chassis, or chassis mount camper. I have no data for their towing capacity, but their payload was around 4000 lbs.
-----------------------------------

1972 J-4000, 8000 GVW model J-4800 "3407Z" townside pickup specifications from the 1972 Technical Service Manual:

Engine: 360 V8
Transmission: T-18 standard, Hydra-matic 400 optional
Transfer case: Model 20
Clutch size: 11"
Front & rear brake size: 12 1/8" X 2"
Front axle: Model 44HD full floating, 3000lbs. capacity
Rear axle: Model 60-3 full floating, 5250lbs. capacity
Axle ratio: 4.09 only
Front springs: 240lbs. per inch each
Rear springs: 270/450lbs. per inch each
------------------------------

I had to recheck my data. It is 10,000lbs. tow rating for the J-4800 in 1973.

Straight from the Jeep 1973 "Trailer Towing and Camper Truck Bulletin" produced directly by Jeep and distributed at dealers.



1973 Jeep Townside Pickup Truck - 8000 GVW Model J-4800

Class 4 towing (10,000lbs. gross trailer weight and 1200lbs. gross tongue weight).

Required equipment:

Engine..................360 V8 (standard)
Cooling.................Extra-duty (standard)
Transmission.........Automatic
Axle ratio..............standard
Suspension...........Extra-duty (standard)
Steering...............Power
Brakes.................Power
Tires....................7.50 X 16 E-range 10-ply (standard)
Electrical system...Extra-duty (standard)
Trailer hitch..........Equalizer
Payload................3520lbs
-----------------------------------
It also lists properly equipped Wagoneers at 6500lbs. towing and 1790lbs. payload.

[Kaiserman]

I was stating by todays standards, 3/4 ton trucks of 30-40 years ago are less capable than todays 1/2 ton trucks.

I sincerely doubt any modern 1/2 ton truck could stand up the the abuse any 1/2-3/4 ton US truck made from the 60's/70's have.

Last I looked most modern 1/2 tons are running struts up front with rack and pinion steering and have light duty rear spring packs. I'll say the 3/4 tons and up are better, but the 1/2 tons have gotten weaker than 1/2 tons of yesteryear.

I had to recheck my data. It is 10,000lbs. tow rating for the J-4800 in 1973.

10K sounds right for the J3800/J4800 Camper Trucks for all years. Sans the B350/AMC360 everything was more or less the same from 69-73.

My 69 J3800 has a nice hitch that seems factory. It bolts to the rear cross member, the step bumper (stock bumper that is all 3/16" steel) and runs down and bolts to the sides of the frame. It's not shown in my Special Equipment brochures, but they list a HD hitch. I'm assuming that's what this is.

IIRC '70 was the last year for the factory DRW. Elliott had at least one verified '70 in his DRW registry.

[FSJunkie]

My aunt's 2011 F150 Lariat crew cab short bed has a payload of something like 1100 pounds. That's less than my Wagoneer by 700 pounds. Even my little 1977 AMC Hornet has 900 pounds payload! Granted that F150 can tow 8000...

[Chuck1225]

I don't want to start a war here but with my personal experience being in an area where its mostly farms and diesel trucks. I will put my 2 cents in. If your looking to stay on the cheap avoid the diesels like you planned. I've heard many bad stories about powerstrokes and the older ford idi diesels and had personal experience too. They are money pits. We've had pretty good luck with gm 6.2/6.5's, but I've heard bad of them too. And I know people that swear by cummins trucks but the people who have them absolutely hate when a problem does occur because it costs a small fortune. Stay with a gasser and 5mpg or less or be prepared to spend as much or more than you pay for a diesel truck to fix its known and unknown issues before they happen!!!

Sent from my Motorola Moto X

Yep. My grandpa has an '88 F250 with (I believe) the 7.3 and an early 2000's model F350 wiith whatever diesel it has. I've honestly never been inclined to ask, and haven't seen the hood up on either. As far as the '88 goes, the thing is a beast. The bed is rusting through (there is a 1/2 inch thick steel plate covering the floor of the bed to cover the holes and provide extra weight), your feet are in danger of going through the floor-boards at any minute, and the entire truck is slowly turning to a rust-puddle on the dirt floor of the barn, but it starts every time, and pulls a bulldozer trailer that is maybe 25' long (or thereabouts, I've never measured) and around 14 bales on it. (man, I thought I had more concrete information.. These are all round-a-bout figures.) They've never had to do anything major to the drivetrain, either. they're actually debating looking for a truck with a good body to drop the engine and transmission into.

HOWEVER: my grandpa and uncle will both say this: unless all you're doing is tow, stick with a gas. If you're towing really frequently, you'll want a diesel, but otherwise, stick with a gas. Having said that, my grandpa also told me that if I ever got a diesel, to get a cummins. He can buy a rebuild kit for the cummins in his Case IH Magnums for around $1000, supposedly.

Does any of this make sense?

[nc wagoneer]

Yeah, we have an 87 with the 6.9 idi (same as the 88's 7.3 idi just destroked) and we've had nothing but problems. My uncle had a 99-00 7.3 powerstroke for 3 months before he got rid of it, and my other uncle had a 6.0 power stroke that cost more in repairs than the truck then another 6.0 that was great. Its all luck of the draw but there always seems to be more lemons when it comes to diesels in my opinion.

Sent from my Motorola Moto X

[Stuka]

My aunt's 2011 F150 Lariat crew cab short bed has a payload of something like 1100 pounds. That's less than my Wagoneer by 700 pounds. Even my little 1977 AMC Hornet has 900 pounds payload! Granted that F150 can tow 8000...

Payload ratings have greatly changed in the way they are measured. There was no regulations on how it could be measured. These days for a truck includes any weight in the bed, and any passengers with the exception of the driver. The lowest current F150 I think is 1200ish lbs, but the highest is over 3000lbs.

As for diesel reliability, like anything you hear more about the bad ones than the good ones. The more of something there is out there, the more you will hear about bad ones. Ford 6.0's did have some known issues for sure. The older IDI's were for the most part very reliable, but nothing is perfect.

Plenty of gas engines with issues. Just talk to a GM mechanic about GM 5.3L's with cylinder deactivation and the massive oil burning issues they have. Or just google "5.3L oil burning".

Oh yeah, current F150's use a double wishbone front suspension with coil over shocks. It is not a strut, which only uses a lower control arm and the strut determines the tires camber. One cannot say the rack and pinion steering that is used is "weaker" without comparing specs. You can go buy a new Freightliner with rack and pinion steering.

[Kaiserman]

Well I guess time will tell how the new trucks hold up compared to the old ones. But I work on these things every day. Many of them are used on the farm and from what I've seen, I'm not impressed. The Chevy 1/2 tons break and fall apart, and it seems like no one even wants to use Ford 1/2 tons around here on the farm. The Dodge 1/2 tons hold up better than the Chevy's, but not by much.

I don't know why anyone buys 1/2 tons with plans to work them. All I know is an M715 will out perform them anywhere but the highway.

And here is a late model F150 front end. It may have a double wish bone set up, but that is still a weak piece of stamped metal (strut style) holding that front end up (the cup supporting the bottom of the spring). You don't see anything HD with that set up. And yes, I've seen those metal cups come apart before.

http://www.f150forum.com/members/franky ... f=gnr-next

Heck, my 63 J300 6,600lb GVW truck will lift a plow better than a 88-2000 1/2-1-ton Chevy will. Those IFS front ends don't take the weight very well.

[Stuka]

Well I guess time will tell how the new trucks hold up compared to the old ones. But I work on these things every day. Many of them are used on the farm and from what I've seen, I'm not impressed. The Chevy 1/2 tons break and fall apart, and it seems like no one even wants to use Ford 1/2 tons around here on the farm. The Dodge 1/2 tons hold up better than the Chevy's, but not by much.

I don't know why anyone buys 1/2 tons with plans to work them. All I know is an M715 will out perform them anywhere but the highway.

And here is a late model F150 front end. It may have a double wish bone set up, but that is still a weak piece of stamped metal (strut style) holding that front end up (the cup supporting the bottom of the spring). You don't see anything HD with that set up. And yes, I've seen those metal cups come apart before.

http://www.f150forum.com/members/franky ... f=gnr-next

Heck, my 63 J300 6,600lb GVW truck will lift a plow better than a 88-2000 1/2-1-ton Chevy will. Those IFS front ends don't take the weight very well.

I will completely agree with GM's IFS being less than stellar. I have seen more of those things come apart than any other make. They do not hold up to abuse well at all. And yeah, if you are on a farm, working the truck, a 3/4 is a better choice. Ford and Ram both have solid axles that will hold up better, and the trucks are designed for work. 1/2 tons are typically daily drivers with weekend work duty.

[nc wagoneer]

But if your just towing and not abusing it with off road work I actually like the gm ifs in the 3/4-1 ton flavor. Never been in such a smooth riding 3/4 ton before. I've heard of problems with them for hard farm use but towing down the highway I haven't heard of any issues.

Sent from my Motorola Moto X

[csuengr]

IIRC from the 88' owners manual I have, the J20 with a fifth wheel is rated to tow 10,000 lbs. For what you wanna do Blake it is starting to sound like a slide-in plus a trailer for the Honcho. Or get a bigger truck.

[nc wagoneer]

Or just do like austin4x4 did and build a crew cab longbed j truck with upgraded axles. I wouldn't doubt his truck could tow 15k or so properly done up with a 5th wheel.

Sent from my Motorola Moto X