Gearing- how slow is slow enough?

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Southern Gorilla
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Re: Gearing- how slow is slow enough?

Post by Southern Gorilla »

68glad wrote:D60/80 will be fine for what it sounds like you want to do. Upgrade to 35sp shafts and hubs for peace of mind. I wouldn't waste money on the klune personally. New drivelines, fab cross members, adapters for the D20 (if you still want it), shifter. pita. Seems like running some 4:10 gears would meet your goals and save a ton of cash. 1.79 mph crawl in 1st (3.2mph in 2nd) @ 52:1 ratio yet still be able to go 77mph @ 2000rpm.

edit: the D20 will fail. ;)
Yeah, the D20 is out of the picture. Maybe I'll build a go-kart with the old drivetrain. I'm thinking I'll just swap in a 242. There is no single case that offers everything I want. The 242 seems the best compromise. But I'm open to persuasion. The main thing I'm after is a fulltime case. So I don't know why I was even thinking about keeping the D20 in the first place.

What about setting 1 MPH as a reasonable goal for crawl speed? I'm asking because I'm a very detail-oriented kinda nut. It helps me to have specific goals to shoot for. I know some folks just wander into the shed and let sparks fly until they have what they think is right. And that's fine if it works for them. I just can't operate that way. I need to plan a design to within an inch of its life first.
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Re: Gearing- how slow is slow enough?

Post by AwesomeJ10 »

Are you planning to install your own gears in whatever axles you go with?

You should consider the 14bolt over the D80. 14bolts (if using the crush sleeve elminator kit) are much, much easier to setup the gears than any Dana axle. This is because the 14bolt has a removable pinion assembly which is adjusted by adding/removing shims on that pinion assembly. Dana axles require you to have to remove the pinion bearings every time you are setting up/adjusting the pattern. 14bolts also have screw adjusters for the backlash VS the Dana axles require you to remove the bearings with a bearing splitter and then press them back on with a press. Some argue that a 14bolt loses a little clearance, but it's only like maybe 1/2" or 3/4". I'm running an unshaven 14bolt and don't have any problems with it dragging over rocks.
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Re: Gearing- how slow is slow enough?

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Blake wrote:... Some argue that a 14bolt loses a little clearance, but it's only like maybe 1/2" or 3/4". I'm running an unshaven 14bolt and don't have any problems with it dragging over rocks.
You can remove about 5/8" off the bottom and still keep the lower bolt hole easily .
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Re: Gearing- how slow is slow enough?

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Blake wrote:You should consider the 14bolt over the D80.
I see Detroit now offers the Truetrac LSD for the 14-bolt. That makes it a definite contender.
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Re: Gearing- how slow is slow enough?

Post by will e »

When I played with the calculator I noted that the transmission first gear seemed to have the largest affect on overall craw. Get as low of a granny gear as you can.

That said, in answer to your other questions about differences. I run a 4 speed atlas as well (1:1,2:1,2.72:1,5.44:1). 4.56 gears and 33" tires (actual size).

There is a noticable difference between 2:1 and 2.72:1. I love the 2:1 for the trails around here. It's just enough torque to make the 'trail hills' a easier on the truck, help with slowing down going down hill but doesn't keep me from having to crawl along at a more flat spot. It's also fun in like sand washes. But 'crawling' over something I can tell it struggles more than it did when I had the np208 (2.62) or when I am in 2.72 on the Atlas. 5.44 is plenty low for my application, keeping in mind I get the added torque mulipication from the AT. I have played with it on a couple of obsticles but haven't really had a chance to 'crawl' with it over something. I never had much trouble with just the np208 getting over stuff, the 5.44 will just give me more control. It will also help with engine braking going down hills.

I also like that I can go just RWD. If you are considering a front locker you might look at options that allow just RWD.

They key is patience and cash. I got a good deal on the Atlas. It had never been installed and I only paid less than 2/3 of what it would have cost if I had ordered one.
I had been waiting for a deal on a D60 front end. One showed up recently that included the gears I have/want (4.56) as well as an ARB. I picked it up for less than half of what one would have cost if I had found one, geared it and bought a new ARB for it.
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Re: Gearing- how slow is slow enough?

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will e wrote:When I played with the calculator I noted that the transmission first gear seemed to have the largest affect on overall craw. Get as low of a granny gear as you can.
The G56 is either 6.29 or 5.94 depending on what year you get. Either one is pretty good.
will e wrote:That said, in answer to your other questions about differences. I run a 4 speed atlas as well (1:1,2:1,2.72:1,5.44:1). 4.56 gears and 33" tires (actual size).

There is a noticable difference between 2:1 and 2.72:1. I love the 2:1 for the trails around here. It's just enough torque to make the 'trail hills' a easier on the truck, help with slowing down going down hill but doesn't keep me from having to crawl along at a more flat spot. It's also fun in like sand washes. But 'crawling' over something I can tell it struggles more than it did when I had the np208 (2.62) or when I am in 2.72 on the Atlas. 5.44 is plenty low for my application, keeping in mind I get the added torque mulipication from the AT. I have played with it on a couple of obsticles but haven't really had a chance to 'crawl' with it over something. I never had much trouble with just the np208 getting over stuff, the 5.44 will just give me more control. It will also help with engine braking going down hills.
Those are the exact ratios I'd get from a 203/242 doubler if I go that route. But I'd get an Atlas if I found one at the flea market. Believe me, I'm a huge fan of having plenty of gears. I was amazed when I first drove a 13-speed Eaton after years of driving 10-speeds. The overall range isn't significantly wider. But the finer splits in between make a huge difference.
will e wrote:I also like that I can go just RWD. If you are considering a front locker you might look at options that allow just RWD.
At the moment, I'm planning to use Detroit Truetracs front and rear. If I could fit one in the transfer case I'd do that too. When is RWD an advantage?
will e wrote:They key is patience and cash. I got a good deal on the Atlas. It had never been installed and I only paid less than 2/3 of what it would have cost if I had ordered one.
I had been waiting for a deal on a D60 front end. One showed up recently that included the gears I have/want (4.56) as well as an ARB. I picked it up for less than half of what one would have cost if I had found one, geared it and bought a new ARB for it.
Patience is a foreign concept to me. Although it's fairly easy to wait for things when you don't have the cash to buy them.
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Re: Gearing- how slow is slow enough?

Post by AwesomeJ10 »

I always run the Atlas in RWD unless I'm actually on an obstacle. It's super easy to flip the lever in/out of engagement and can be shifted on the fly.

This keeps pressure off the front driveline until it's needed. Also allows for easier steering with the front disengaged.
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Re: Gearing- how slow is slow enough?

Post by Stuka »

Yeah 2wd low is awesome, wish my two Jeeps I have now had the ability. As the majority of trails around here do no require constant 4wd to go through. But high range is a bit high for them.


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Re: Gearing- how slow is slow enough?

Post by will e »

If you are going to run an automatic locker up front I would suggest you do not want full time 4wd (unless the transfer case also has 2wd). fulltime on the road with a locker in the front and big tires is not going to be fun to drive.

I have an automatic locker in the front now and like the other have responded the majority of the time I just go rwd with the TC in one of the low ranges. It really helps the steering. You can actually help justify the cost of the Atlas (to some degree) by being able to run low/rwd and using a less expensive locker in the front (compared to an ARB/OX).

You may not find one at a flea market but watch pirate. The 2.0 4spd atlas cases turn up and they are not super popular with the guys there who want bragging rights on crawl ratios. With a manual transmission I would be tempted to go with their 2.72/3.8 option
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Re: Gearing- how slow is slow enough?

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will e wrote:If you are going to run an automatic locker up front I would suggest you do not want full time 4wd
The Truetrac is a limited-slip. It's one of those Torsen-style all-gear diffs like what Audi uses. So there should be no problem with a fulltime case.
will e wrote:You may not find one at a flea market but watch pirate.
Not on a bet. Hate that site with a passion.
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Re: Gearing- how slow is slow enough?

Post by Stuka »

A Torsen LSD will still create a heavy steering feel. For full time you either want an open diff or a selectable for the front axle. The NP242 has an open center diff, but on high traction surfaces while turning the Torsen will tighten up. Although not as much as when a tire spins.

You may be ok with it, but if it was me, I would want the front to be open.


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Re: Gearing- how slow is slow enough?

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I don't have anywhere near the experience that other folks have that have posted, but I have noticed some things on my outings.

First, even ten feet of bad surface will totally reclassify an otherwise easy 10 mile trail. I know that I do not want to be going down any road at a pleasant minor speed with the engine at idle. I want the engine above idle by some amount no matter what because there will be (and have been) those short, ten foot stretches that need some consideration, slower speeds, and instant torque on occasion. This is not the place to be screwing with a clutch to inch it through, or doing the "one foot on the throttle, and one on the brake" act. The slowest speed at idle in your lowest gear should always be slower than anything you'll ever actually need so that you are manipulating the throttle only. Much nicer way to go.

Second, I know modern engines are doing some nice things, but 1600 rpm is not where most gas engines can cruise. Diesels? Yes. Gas? Not so much. Even the modern diesels have moved the peak torque band over 2000 rpm. My old 7.3 Power Stroke did 1600 rpm just fine. Not so with the subsequent 6.0 in my F-550. That engine wants to be 2200-2400 rpm. Point out any factory automotive gas engine that is designed to cruise at 1600 rpm and I'll retract my statement.

Next: too many gears! Unless I've mis-read the previous posts, the engine will be a power beast with a fairly broad power band. It's not some monster class 8 OTR Diesel with a power band 200 rpm wide. Those engines require LOTS of gears. Your proposed engine could very easily handle gears that are at least 20% apart. And, unlike a class 8 OTR truck, since you won't need all those gears, you also won't use all those gears. There were multiple sticks in an old Unimog I had. What a PITA! (A side note: the two first gears were so low that top speed was measured in meters per hour, not kilometers per hour! Anybody need to pull a set of plows?)

What I got from that experience was the TC, for example, should have gearing that can be thought of as "modes" of driving. Low = off road, High = highway, or along those lines anyway. Any more than one stick to manage just to do basic driving is an unnecessary PITA.

And, I have to ask, just how fast do you plan to be driving this rig on the highway? Now, obviously, I know you're not going to try to keep up with Bugattis. (The flying brick nature of a FSJ just doesn't lend itself well to such activities. :D )

It is my opinion that maximum torque multiplication should be done in the rear axle, if at all possible. Doing it before the driveshaft means all those parts have to be bigger, stronger, and, importantly, heavier. Use some of the remaining torque for performance.

And, I would have to ask, just how much stuff you are planning on carrying along in the Jeep? I would have to think that a 14 bolt would be far more than enough for a rear axle. That axle is suitable for dually rigs with GVWs better than 10K lbs (11.5K lbs, IIRC). If you put even 3K pounds in the back and on the roof, you'll see sheet metal deformation take place. Personally, I've decided on a FF 14 bolt for my rig. Not because I need the load capacity that it will support (though it should mean that it will likely never wear out), but parts are plentiful and cheap, and gear setup is just so simple. . .

Even disc brakes are straight forward on the 14 bolt. Get a later AAM axle and it will already have the disc brakes, as well!

Coincidentally, I pulled the cover off my recently acquired 14 bolt today. This is a 1st generation axle from a C&C SRW truck. I have no idea how many miles are on it, but the truck it came from was trash. Internal inspection shows literally zero wear. These axles have the reputation that they do for a reason. The only bitch you'll read about on these axles is their "limited" ground clearance.

Anyway, this is all intended to be in fun. Please don't take my writings as my pointing fingers, or passing judgement. I hate it when somebody says "oh, just do this" or "you don't need that". I understand the need to engineer things to death, and have done so ad-naseum. One piece of serious advice I would offer is to get the truck out and see what it is really like before committing to anything. Even since June when I started playing with the Waggy, I have determined that there have been a few expensive flaws in my plan. For example, the very day I finished putting the four-inch lift springs on the truck I could see that I should have gone SOA on the front. After buying new 15" BFG AT/TAs, I really wish I had bought 16" tires, etc., etc. There are many things I just could not foresee without actually taking it out and using it. Ah, the price of experience...

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Re: Gearing- how slow is slow enough?

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mineral co wrote:First, even ten feet of bad surface will totally reclassify an otherwise easy 10 mile trail. I know that I do not want to be going down any road at a pleasant minor speed with the engine at idle. I want the engine above idle by some amount no matter what because there will be (and have been) those short, ten foot stretches that need some consideration, slower speeds, and instant torque on occasion... The slowest speed at idle in your lowest gear should always be slower than anything you'll ever actually need so that you are manipulating the throttle only.
I agree with all of this. That was the point of my original question, to determine that "emergency crawl" speed. I have no intention of idling along just for kicks.
mineral co wrote:Second, I know modern engines are doing some nice things, but 1600 rpm is not where most gas engines can cruise.
Maybe not. I may at some point have to re-gear. And I know gearing for a higher cruise RPM would also make it easier to get the low crawl. I could also just keep the stock engine and not have to worry as much about economy. But where's the fun in that.
mineral co wrote:Next: too many gears! ... Your proposed engine could very easily handle gears that are at least 20% apart. And, unlike a class 8 OTR truck, since you won't need all those gears, you also won't use all those gears. There were multiple sticks in an old Unimog I had. What a PITA! (A side note: the two first gears were so low that top speed was measured in meters per hour, not kilometers per hour! Anybody need to pull a set of plows?)

What I got from that experience was the TC, for example, should have gearing that can be thought of as "modes" of driving. Low = off road, High = highway, or along those lines anyway. Any more than one stick to manage just to do basic driving is an unnecessary PITA.
I agree with this also. I don't want or need plowing gears. I'd be perfectly content with a single-reduction transfer case and a four-speed transmission if the combo met the high and low end criteria. Determining the low end was the point of this thread. My plan has always been the "mode" style you mention.
mineral co wrote:And, I have to ask, just how fast do you plan to be driving this rig on the highway? Now, obviously, I know you're not going to try to keep up with Bugattis. (The flying brick nature of a FSJ just doesn't lend itself well to such activities. :D )
Just ordinary highway speeds. I'm not drag racing or going to Bonneville. The important thing is being able to cruise at these speeds. I don't want to gear it so that I'm hitting 5,000 RPM at 75 MPH.
mineral co wrote:It is my opinion that maximum torque multiplication should be done in the rear axle, if at all possible. Doing it before the driveshaft means all those parts have to be bigger, stronger, and, importantly, heavier. Use some of the remaining torque for performance.
I don't disagree with this. But there are other concerns to consider. There are only so many OD ranges to choose from. Too low of a gear in the diffs will make it impossible to meet the cruise speed criteria.
mineral co wrote:And, I would have to ask, just how much stuff you are planning on carrying along in the Jeep? I would have to think that a 14 bolt would be far more than enough for a rear axle.
Load carrying is one thing. But I've seen photographic evidence of 1-ton axles snapping under the abuse of taller tires. That was my primary concern.
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Re: Gearing- how slow is slow enough?

Post by will e »

Southern Gorilla wrote:
will e wrote:If you are going to run an automatic locker up front I would suggest you do not want full time 4wd
The Truetrac is a limited-slip. It's one of those Torsen-style all-gear diffs like what Audi uses. So there should be no problem with a fulltime case.
will e wrote:You may not find one at a flea market but watch pirate.
Not on a bet. Hate that site with a passion.
The for sale section of pirate is very business like. Except for the links to the bellavista tech write ups I don't poke around on Pirate either. But if you are looking for good deals on stuff that is already built up some, or parts people were going to use and changed their mind, it is a great place to watch for it.
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Re: Gearing- how slow is slow enough?

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will e wrote:The for sale section of pirate is very business like. Except for the links to the bellavista tech write ups I don't poke around on Pirate either. But if you are looking for good deals on stuff that is already built up some, or parts people were going to use and changed their mind, it is a great place to watch for it.
I agree and my bookmark for Pirate is the classified section.
You have to be ready to move on stuff though, there's a lot of volume going through that area.
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Re: Gearing- how slow is slow enough?

Post by tndonor »

[quote="But I'm trying to keep the top cruise RPM under 2,000 with this build to conserve the engine as well as fuel.[/quote]

Regardless of the motor gas or Diesel, you have to consider brake specific fuel consumption. Gas motors are not designed to be efficient (well their nature lends them not to be more than engineering) at RPMS around 1650 as you quoted. Every engine will make peak power with least amount of fuel consumption and that is where you gear to operate for fuel efficiency, less stress on all driveline and components, etc. Heck Diesels don't even make their peak torque at 1650 in general, its usually 1800. Lugging any motor 440 or not in the low end will result in poor performance, undo strain, and terrible fuel mileage.......one of the goals you hope to achieve.

As for one ton axles and your doubt of them to holding up, It appears your rigs main intention or use will be street. I have an 8500 pound + M715 that puts about 500 HP and 1200 TQ down through one tons. Granted I have built them up. For street driving, one tons will do the trick nicely and safely. Im curious why you feel they wont. Frankly making hybrid axles without gearing and using the rig in a hardcore manner isn't necessary and a lot of un needed work and money. D80 hybrids are for instances offroad where stupid horsepower meet deep gearing and bound drivelines. Don't get me wrong they are cool, just don't seem to be in keeping or remotely needed for purposes you stated.
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