Grand Wagoneer 4cyl Diesel Research

[JoggerFogger]

My wife gave me the OK to build a rig for her. She wants a 2013 Porsche Cayenne Diesel, so I think this is a more reasonable (and cooler) route.
Has to be red and diesel. My wife is a princess and currently drives a (Red) X5 and has Upper Class standards (I'm trying to be nice with that description).
I understand the economics of a diesel swap don't always pencil out. $10,000-15,000 on a diesel swap buys a lot of gas.
I also make biodiesel so I have almost free fuel, which should offset a ton of the $$$ justification for this project.
I use the biodiesel in my 2007 GMC Duramax/Allison LBZ SBCC 4x4, and it's high quality fuel.

I'm going to try and do all the work myself as a 2013-14 winter project, so I have some time to research, find parts, and mentally prepare myself.

I've read about a dozen threads about it, and most of them materialize out of parts that the builder already has on hand. But I have a clean slate for this build. I cleaned out the garage years ago.

I'm thinking a bread van donor 4BT and a Nice Grand Wagoneer, but that's about it. The Isuzu 4BT1t seems to be a popular option as well.
Looking for advice on the best/easiest/already been done/proven/bolt together/cheap/geared right combination of transmission and transfer case.
Ideally I'd love to just buy two donors and mate the parts together. One being the Wagoneer, and the other an unknown 4 cyl diesel at this point.
I'd like to keep it looking stock but a small lift if necessary for clearance wouldn't be horrible.
Doesn't need to be any more capable than it was originally.

So if you were going to do this repower, what would you use?

Thanks,
Kevin

[Stuka]

Welcome to the forum!

I think it should be pointed out that if she is used to an X5, and was looking at a Cayenne, a 4BT is going to sound feel like she is driving a dump truck. They are awesome engines, but they are loud and vibrate.

But if this is going to be a secondary vehicle to the X5, then it may be a worthwhile trade off.

[TrenchFoot]

There have been plenty of GM 6.2/6.5 conversions done on FSJs, but no one has a build thread over here yet. Mine rebuild hasn't made much progress for a bit, I have all the parts and none of the time required until this fall. These engines make good mileage and decent power and in my view a good fit for Wagoneers/Cherokees. Check IFSJA's diesel section.

Lotsa J trucks tend to end up with the 4/6 cyl Cummins. But like Stuka points out, they aren't what you'd expect to have roll up to the valet.

I'd give a second look at a GM diesel. If she expects an auto transmission, you have your choice of TH400 or 4-speed 700R4 (4l60/4L60E) or 4L80 which'll give you O/D and a locking TC. With any of these you'll get a lotta xfer cases to choose from. They may not have the stump-pulling grunt of the Cummins engines but they are cheap, plentiful, make good mileage, and are easy to live with. Some years are better than others, but I'll leave that for another discussion.

[Mr. Goatman]

I'm in an Isuzu swap right now so I can't comment on the end result. I assume she will want an auto transmission and currently there are no available adapters. One guy claims to make them but has proven unreliable. I paid in a month ago and after the money went he no longer answers the phone or emails. This was an in-stock item that I was told would ship in 3-4 days. there is another guy that has an adapter for a dodge manual and is working on an auto but as of now it is not available. The smoothest and quietest of the "old" diesels will be the 6.2- power is not too bad with mods and turbo. There are auto transmission options... You might look at the Mercedes diesels too.

[carnuck]

There was a Cayenne with a VW turbo 6 cyl diesel swapped in on VWVortex (I think that's where I saw it)

[carnuck]

can't find the link but they just released the factory diesel version in the US.
http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/cayen ... ne-diesel/
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/the-p ... 62701.html

[Mudbull]

Welcome! Im interested to hear and see where this goes. Heres my 0.02 cents:

My friend works at a VW dealership-ive heard some bad things about the bigger diesels; I don't think they're very robust (bad fuel, water killed enough parts on a couple touaregs that it was more economical to replace the whole engine). With that being said I would love to do a TDI build one day, from a Passat or jetta...I like the ~06-08 Mercedes powered jeeps, and maybe the new ones if they do well.

Since youll be doing biodiesel, something I hope to jump into one day, you may look on those forums for a preferred engine, I know for a two tank setup a cummins or 6.2/6.5 would be the best bet, at the cost of quietness and smoothness.

[nc wagoneer]

If I had the money if look at a 4cyl from one of the newest gen vw passats, my uncle and aunt have one and that sucker HAULS!!! Between it and our jetta the passat destroys it, I would HIGHLY look at that engine if you have the $. I'm going with a 4bd1 because its smoother than a 4bt and slightly more efficient (and cheaper) but with no adapters available for an auto, in your case I'd look at the passat diesel.

[carnuck]

Apparently the newest GM ecodiesel is VM Motori made (designed by Daewoo)

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/2014-che ... ive-review

[Stuka]

The problem with using a newer diesel is the amount of electronics integrated into them. It makes transplants quite a bit harder.

[nc wagoneer]

My dad bought a 6.2 diesel suburban a couple weeks ago, IMO the 6.2 is pretty powerful (for a 5000 lb SUV) and with the 700r4 mated to it it would make a nice dd in a fsj, only thing would be with her coming from an SUV like that you'd have to find a way to muffle the sound a little bit. If that burban wasn't so nice and connected to a freshly rebuilt 700r4 that 130k mile motor would already be sitting in my j20

[[ O o \\|// o O ]]

For a DD that won't be towing I would argue that the best choice is the Mercedes Benz 5 cylinder diesel engine/transmission combo. I had an '84 300 Turbodiesel. I pulled a trailer built from a full size Ford truck bed, frame and rear axle loaded with 800+ pounds of equipment. The engine didn't seem to realise it was in a passenger car and not a truck. The MB has a curb weight around 600 pounds less than a Grand Wagoneer but with the trailer and load it was probably 700 pounds heavier. I wouldn't hesitate a second to use that engine/transmission in a FSJ. The Mercedes transmission is just about bulletproof too. A divorced np205 and she be able to go just about anywhere she pointed it. MB is amazing for maintaining parts inventory too. They sold over 2 million of these cars world wide. Any part you could ever need is usually at your dealership in no more than two days. You can pick up a clean car for less than the price of some small diesel engines alone.
Just my two cents.

[JoggerFogger]

Sorry about the slow response. I need to turn on an auto-notifier... when I find it.

So I'm looking at all options. I just got off the phone with a local diesel shop that does swaps and repowers. BTW, he said $1600-2,000 to do the swap if I brought him the donor, motor, tranny, and TC. I thought that was a pretty good blank quote. He said the best option would be a 4BT with a dodge tranny/TC. 47RE/NP205

After reading about the Isuzu 4BD1t vs. the Cummins 4BT, here is what I know:

Isuzu 4BD17
Pros:
It seems like the Isuzu is a little more economical, a little shorter, and a little quieter/smoother. They're also more available from NPR trucks (proven by some craigslist searches locally) I'm a fan of my Duramax LBZ, and that's an Isuzu motor. Isuzu makes more diesel motors worldwide than any other manufacturer. That also says something. I think the quieter/smoother element weighs heavy in this case.
Cons:
The downside of the Isuzu is that parts are more expensive. There's less knowledge in the builder world, tuning world, and swap world. The two shops I've talked to strongly advise other motors. It would need an adapter plate unless it came with a suitable auto. I've heard that the guys making adapter plates are less than reliable, although I think one is in a suburb of Portland, here in Oregon. The exhaust/turbo reside on the driver's side of the motor and can interfere with steering and/or braking elements. Hop-up and power mods are harder/more expensive.

Cummins 4BT
Pros:
BEEP-ton of aftermarket support as most 6BT parts bolt-on. Deep knowledge and experience everywhere on hop-up parts. Parts are cheap and plentiful. Easy to find transmissions that bolt right up via Dodge. Proven good re-power/swap application. Easy to tune up and modify. Exhaust/turbo resides on the passenger side.
Cons:
Louder, Vibrates more. High demand has elevated the price. 3 inches taller than the Isuzu.

Although I agree the newer VW TDI motors are great, I'd rather stay away from all the electronics. Simple is better.

It is going to feel like a Dump Truck compared to the BMW. I wish I could find a local 4BT running in the flesh for her to hear it first hand. And even if she likes it at first, the novelty might wear off.

Thanks for all the thoughts. I'll keep researching, and I'm totally listening to (reading) every one of these posts and ideas.

-Kevin

[Stuka]

At the bottom of this page is a "Subscribe Topic" button.

That will send you update emails. You can change you settings by clicking the gear in the upper right part of the page.

[JoggerFogger]

Ah ha. That option doesn't come up until I go to post another reply. Maybe it's because I'm using Chrome?
It's "Notify me when a reply is posted".

-Kevin

[edit:] nope, it's there, I just must be blind today. Thanks.

[Mr. Goatman]

There are a lot of newer Isuzu engines on ebay. I seriously thought about the 4JG2 before I found the 4BD1. There is a great write up from a guy in Texas that swapped one into a trooper. There are also Toyota diesels. It seems the rest of the world has embraced the diesel for the great engine that it is. We here in the US are limited by the EPA and the NTSB from partaking of imports available to the rest of the world.

[JoggerFogger]

Oh, I've been crying about diesel availability since about 1995. I wanted to buy a foreign "hi-lux" diesel front clip for my Tacoma and do the swap. But it didn't make financial sense, and that damn V6 3.4L motor just wouldn't die.

I've been reading more about the Isuzu 4BD1t and I found a great build on another site in a FJ62 Toyota Land Cruiser:
http://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-wagon ... 4bd1t.html


The local builder I talk with on the phone was really adamant about how much better a 4Bt is over the 4BD1t. He said the Isuzu was more expensive to rebuild, harder to tune, and he'd rather swap in a VW TDI over an Isuzu. This is a guy that works on diesels every day. Trucks, Farm tractors, etc. They do performance diesel stuff and repairs/rebuilds. That doesn't seem to match up with the experiences of the conversions I've read about..?

Here's a quote from the thread:

One thing I think I should mention is the simplicity of this engine. I have been around gas engines my whole life and grew up working on dirtbikes and go carts and such but I had never had any experience with a diesel engine before and this one was pretty amazing to work on. This engine has a completely gear driven valvetrain, crank, cam and injector timing. There are no belts or chains, only heavy duty gears that all line up simply with simple letter timing marks on each gear. This was such a simple and straightforward engine to work on and I did all the work in my garage with no need for a machine shop. If I can rebuild this engine in my garage, anybody can. I had a factory manual and the help of all the experts like Dougal on the 4BTSwaps forum to answer my questions and it was really not that tough, just time consuming as I had to do all on my days off from work.

I just really like the idea of a quieter and smoother engine. And more readily available! And shoot, if I can do all the work myself, all the better.

-Kevin

[Mr. Goatman]

I don't know about more available. In my neck of the woods they are nearly impossible to find. The 4BT is much easier (although expensive) If they are common where you live I would like to have another
I got my transmission with adapters (47RH- Dodge diesel auto). I'll post pictures in my thread soon.

[carnuck]

Sounds like he has a 4BT for sale or an anti-isuzu axe to grind

[JeepinPete]

The Isuzu is designed to be overhauled in the frame. It uses sleeves for the cylinders. Isuzu sells the piston, sleeve, rings, wrist pin and rod bushing as a kit. Just pull the old sleeve, drop in the new and assemble away. The cranks a nitrided so they rarely wear. A rebuild is usually a replace-a-thon. Plus there doesn't seem to be any inherent issues with the 4BD1's. The 4BD2t's do have issues with cracking heads. How many Cummins have been hurt or destroyed by the killer dowel pin? As for tuning, the Isuzu uses an "A" series Bosch injection pump. There is not the breadth of knowledge out there as the P pumps, but they can be worked to ludacris power levels if you have the cash. Really, the only thing that works against the Isuzu right now is the lack of readily available adapters.