'68 Wagoneer Build - Euro Style

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Topic author
Jetscuh
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Re: '68 Wagoneer Build - Euro Style

Post by Jetscuh »

So, some sad news. The Wagoneer is done. After getting into it some more it's completely full of rot. It's way more than just replacing a panel here and there. It's just too far gone. Sucks because it would have been great to have on the road, but it'll go to scrap.

I thought about pulling some pieces off here and there to sell - interior or trim but people are so freak'n cheap nowadays I'm not sure it's worth my time.

It's sad that no one took care of it and there is one less early model Wagoneer on the road. It's also sad that it was sold to us with an valid Netherlands inspection for 2 years. It 100% doesn't meet NL or EU standards to be on the road. So they had to of know someone or given someone some extra money to pass it. I knew it had rot, but you really can tell how much until you really tear into it.

So Rip Wagoneer. People suck and let their stuff go to crap.
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Chubbinius
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Re: '68 Wagoneer Build - Euro Style

Post by Chubbinius »

Jetscuh, that's a complete bummer. Any chance you can hold onto it and look for another one overseas to transplant good parts to from that one? If not, parting it out some may help recoup a few dollars (even with folks being thrifty). Sorry to hear that you will not be able to save it and that the safety cert was not really a valid one.
1970 1414X Wagoneer "The Pig"
-Custom Special
-Dauntless 350 V8
-D27 front/D44 rear
2006 XK (65th Ann Edition)-DD

Topic author
Jetscuh
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Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:51 am
Location: Germany

Re: '68 Wagoneer Build - Euro Style

Post by Jetscuh »

It would be so hard to find another one. Especially pre '74 and they can get pricey. This one actually has a decent frame, but it's not a matter of needed a donor vehicle. It's rotten. In the seems, everywhere. This is what happens when all do your seals and weatherstripping dry rot and you leave it outside in the rain. If it were to go to blasting it would turn to Swiss cheese or crumble on itself I think. Found more holes and just layers and layers of rust on the floors under the carpet. The floor looks good from underneath, so kind of deceptive. It was actually moist under the carpet and it's sat in my dry garage for a few weeks now.

I'll save the grill, and maybe steering wheel, and various dash pieces. Maybe tail lights..

If it were just body panel rust that would be one thing but it is far beyond that.

Sucks because it would have been nice to restore a piece of America here and Germany.
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jpswapmohn
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Re: '68 Wagoneer Build - Euro Style

Post by jpswapmohn »

Jetscuh,
Not trying to pour salt in wounds, but can you show us a few pictures of what you believe are the worst areas? I just went back to your pictures, zoomed in, and stared at them. Unless the thing is full of body filler, I can’t see how it could be unsalvageable.. Not doubting you, but maybe it is worse than you expected but not beyond hope.

I know rust can be daunting and sometimes looks worse than it is (sometimes..).

I see what may be a bit of rust color at the tops of the drivers side A-pillar in one of the pictures. We know the floors are always a crap shoot on these things.

Maybe it won’t be a concourse build, but might bring you some pleasure while you are exploring Deutschland..

We are rootin for ya!

I just hate to see you give up after the enthusiasm you showed going into it.
One day I will wake up and realize that my jeep is complete...one day, I just know it.
88Wag, LT1/4L60E/NP242, J20 axles, etc. http://imgbox.com/g/rNuIasKYrS
95YJ, STaK, D44's, SOA, ARB's, Bilstein 5150s, 35" KM2's
50 CJ3A
77 J-10 (sold)

Topic author
Jetscuh
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Re: '68 Wagoneer Build - Euro Style

Post by Jetscuh »

jpswapmohn wrote:Jetscuh,
Not trying to pour salt in wounds, but can you show us a few pictures of what you believe are the worst areas? I just went back to your pictures, zoomed in, and stared at them. Unless the thing is full of body filler, I can’t see how it could be unsalvageable.. Not doubting you, but maybe it is worse than you expected but not beyond hope.

I know rust can be daunting and sometimes looks worse than it is (sometimes..).

I see what may be a bit of rust color at the tops of the drivers side A-pillar in one of the pictures. We know the floors are always a crap shoot on these things.

Maybe it won’t be a concourse build, but might bring you some pleasure while you are exploring Deutschland..

We are rootin for ya!

I just hate to see you give up after the enthusiasm you showed going into it.
I can get some more pictures, but looking from the outside it doesn't look too terrible but there is some filler, bubbling paint (who knows how much rust under that) and a lot of surface rust that I'm not sure how deep it is. The outer part of the panels looks ok, but the wheel wells and front fender aprons/wheel wells are pretty crusty too. So is the grill support and these other two pieces on each side that I don't know the technical name for.

It's rotting from the inside out since a lot of the weather stripping is crap, but the door seals aren't bad so it's weird. I pulled up the carpet in the front and the floors are just completely orange with rust, not a huge deal if it were just the floor pans, but there is rust at the seams of the vehicle, this is where it gets complicated. For example, in the front right by the door hinge/floor/side next to the floor. It's the bad kind of rust (not that any is good) that just crumbles. I touched a corner of the headliner in the front right where moisture has leaked in and it's just crunchy up there and I pulled away the headliner in the corner and so many rust flakes came out. Plus, paint bubbling on the outside means it is rusted all the way through.

It's IN the doors, in the seams, above the doors, all of the hardest, IMO places to deal with.
Capture.JPG
That pic shows the kind of rust that is everywhere - that is where the front floor pan meets the side of the body by the door frame in the front passenger foot area. I am doing a crap job of describing this so I'll get more pictures.

But either way, its 99% going to scrap next week. Someone could possibly save it if they have a lot of time, fabrication skills, welder, metal working experience, etc. The frame really isn't bad. No one here (people are allergic to work - it's an epidemic) is interested in such a thing even for free and shops are afraid of it...so...
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ShagWagon
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Re: '68 Wagoneer Build - Euro Style

Post by ShagWagon »

Give up. I’d take what parts are good off of it and sell them to fund a good new one to start off with. Would be worth buying a good starter than to pour thousands into a rustbucket.
87 Grand Wagoneer Rebuilt 360 by S&J, Fitech GO EFI 600, Novak in-tank fuel pump, Skyjacker Hydro 4" lift, BFG AT KO2 30", Dynamax Muffler, MSD distributor, MSD ignition, Edlebrock perf 4bbl intake, Elgin perf cam, Oil tube mod, Roller rockers, chrome molly lifters, HD alum radiator, Powermaster 150/100 alt, Alum HD water pump, Serhills tailgate harness, Cowl screen mod, Evil Twin grab handles, Rstep's custom AMC door lock knobs, all electrical works.
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jpswapmohn
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Re: '68 Wagoneer Build - Euro Style

Post by jpswapmohn »

I see what you are talking about.
That would require some metalsmithing.

I would grab everything that might be useful before taken it to scrap.
roof rack, rear taillights, grill, all badges, dash knobs, passenger side speaker grill, transfer case shifter, steering wheel (if in good shape and has the horn bar option), door cards, etc. if you have room to store them, might take the bumpers too. Anything useful that we can’t source new replacements for..

Over there, i bet you could find buyers for most of that stuff. I know there is a community of FSJ’ers in western europe.

I put a 69 dash in my 88 wagoneer.. so maybe the whole dash if you think you might want to do something similar in future on a better body.

I would be willing to buy the arm rests and steering wheel if they are solid.

Sorry to see it wasn’t as advertised. Experience will stick with you for the next time and you will know what to look for. Tough lesson to learn. I think most of us have had similar experiences along the way. Mine came with a 74 Buick LeSabre convertible when i was 15. I put every dime and minute i had into that thing only to eventually realize it was a basket case. Of course, my Pop tried to tell me, but once i drug it home, he was right there trying to help me make it into something respectable..
One day I will wake up and realize that my jeep is complete...one day, I just know it.
88Wag, LT1/4L60E/NP242, J20 axles, etc. http://imgbox.com/g/rNuIasKYrS
95YJ, STaK, D44's, SOA, ARB's, Bilstein 5150s, 35" KM2's
50 CJ3A
77 J-10 (sold)

Topic author
Jetscuh
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Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:51 am
Location: Germany

Re: '68 Wagoneer Build - Euro Style

Post by Jetscuh »

I'll pull what I can as it does have some desirable pieces. Shipping is a PIA but workable. I won't be buying another one in the foreseeable future, so no need to save anything for myself.

The dash is in good shape. Steering wheel has the horn bar.

I was so close to going the CJ route - originally found a 5 but the seller didn't respond. Atleast they're smaller and IMO simpler even if rotten.

Topic author
Jetscuh
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Re: '68 Wagoneer Build - Euro Style

Post by Jetscuh »

Got some pics of the crusty ol' gal - some parts anyway...

Started on the doors, the ones on the left side had a plastic lining, the ones on the right didn't.
Some rusty screws, but for the most part an easy removal - some missing screws too - the armrests
aren't original - in the front anyway...then again I'm not even sure what they're supposed to look like.

This was the door I was most concerned about since there is a small hole on the outside and some bubbling paint:

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Plastic lining:

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The door panels aren't great but they're not totally roached either:

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The grille support is rotted on the bottom:

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Got some nice holes by the tailgate hinge - but there is good metal above that so it would't be the hardest fix...maybe.

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Maybe I'll keep this as a memorial :lol:

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In the next days I'll take the seats out, tear up the carpet, and get into the tailgate out of pure curiosity before it departs.

There is a 2 inch diameter hole in the left back passenger floor - but I kind of expect floor pan repairs at this point - so that wasn't what deterred me. I could also sell the LPG fuel tank - but I need to take that and the benches out due to awkwardness and weight.

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Jetscuh
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Re: '68 Wagoneer Build - Euro Style

Post by Jetscuh »

Here are some underside photos and deceptively decent looking exterior photos that make it look like it could be a decent Jeep (but it's not...really)

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Topic author
Jetscuh
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Re: '68 Wagoneer Build - Euro Style

Post by Jetscuh »

Crusty tailgate has some holes:

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More diassembly

At least the PO gave me a mostly full tank of LPG :roll:

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Hey, there's where that hole leads to that I stuck my hand through when looking at the wheel wells...and proceded to pull out handfuls of rust flakes

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Today's WTF moment...trying to get the clips off of the arms that raise and lower the rear glass - so I can remove the rear glass. Can't seem to pop these things off...oh they're welded on! Genius :banghead: One weld broke - two on the other part - still a battle

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Topic author
Jetscuh
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Re: '68 Wagoneer Build - Euro Style

Post by Jetscuh »

Soo, not sure if anyone is still following this disaster but I've been picking, peeling, and pulling parts off of the Wagoneer since I know others could use them.

But me, an idiot, talked to a guy that does metalwork/restoration instead of a body and paint shop, and he has no problem working on the Wagoneer...in one year. He couldn't even fit another car or Vespa in his shop if he tried. It was packed and he's very busy. I am in the wrong business (law) because these body/paint/metal shops here are all BUSY and I think it's a better job honestly :lol: There is another shop (that said guy used to work for) that I am going to contact to see how long their wait is. I've browsed the websites of these two and they have saved some seriously crusty stuff. It will also help if I can get things shipped from America such as quarter panels, rocker panels, floor pans, and whatnot. My tailgate is trashed though so that will take some serious fabrication because odds of finding a better one that someone will ship are slim.

If I save this thing, it will cost me, that's for sure. So it is between restoration and a very, very, lavish vacation :D

Either way I have to continue to strip parts whether or not I save it or sell the parts to others that need them.

And who the heck decided to use rust colored adhesive on the roof? I peeled away the headliner and the whole underneath was bright orange/red. Scared me for a second before I realized it was 98% glue of some sort and not rot.

Finally got the floors up, many holes in spots...one I almost fell through in the back. It was STILL wet under the carpet after it has sat in my dry garage for over a month now.

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I need to find a way to get the LPG tank out and the LPG out of the tank...legally. Basically the tank cannot be extracted from the vehicle with LPG in it...no check valve and an overall stupid setup.
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Chubbinius
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Re: '68 Wagoneer Build - Euro Style

Post by Chubbinius »

Holy smokes! You have some work ahead of you if you are willing to save it. If you haven't seen his thread over on IFSJA.org, Kaiserjeeps has done some amazing work on bringing back a 1970 that needed some love http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=121305. It's a great read and shows off some creative ways to fix/fab parts. Good luck if you decide to fix it up.
1970 1414X Wagoneer "The Pig"
-Custom Special
-Dauntless 350 V8
-D27 front/D44 rear
2006 XK (65th Ann Edition)-DD

Topic author
Jetscuh
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Re: '68 Wagoneer Build - Euro Style

Post by Jetscuh »

Still stripping (the Wagoneer, not myself) and still grumbling. It just kills me that someone imported this thing at one point and idiots over the years hacked stuff together and let it rot from the inside out. I feel like I cannot convey the level of rot via pictures :roll:

Anyho, I am considering sending it for a chemical dip to remove all paint and rust - not sure what would be left!

I've been tuned into that thread about bringing back a 1970 Wagoneer for quite some time. It both amazes me and makes me feel inadequate. I admire his dedication, he is doing a great job!

I do have my eye on a Jeepster Commando though...

More cancerous pics just for the heck of it:

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Chubbinius
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Re: '68 Wagoneer Build - Euro Style

Post by Chubbinius »

Wow, one had to wonder if there wasn't some sort of family member or buddy who hooked the previous owner up at the inspection station for it to have passed. After the chemical dip you may be able to determine the full scale of the work needing done. Those floors do look rough in the pictures, but is it just surface scale or rusted through and through?
1970 1414X Wagoneer "The Pig"
-Custom Special
-Dauntless 350 V8
-D27 front/D44 rear
2006 XK (65th Ann Edition)-DD

Topic author
Jetscuh
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Re: '68 Wagoneer Build - Euro Style

Post by Jetscuh »

Chubbinius wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:37 pm Wow, one had to wonder if there wasn't some sort of family member or buddy who hooked the previous owner up at the inspection station for it to have passed. After the chemical dip you may be able to determine the full scale of the work needing done. Those floors do look rough in the pictures, but is it just surface scale or rusted through and through?
I'm 99.9% sure that someone was hooked up or paid off to get this thing through inspection. I can report this to the RDW (Dutch Authority) as it clearly does not meet their their standards. Still debating.

Some of the floor is surface scale some is rusted through as in daylight on the other side. It goes for a dip in the beginning of November. A shop will pick it up at the end of October and build a cage around it for support pre-dip. Then we can get a real look at what is left. Then we'll proceed with the rest of the restoration.

As soon as it is completely stripped we'll begin the engine/transmission/transfer case rebuild while it is sent off for the dip.

I had 2 guys over from a local shop (they'll bring it to the chemical bath and do some work) and they said they had seen worse, so that's a plus. :lol: Especially with pre-war restorations. I never really thought about that; pre-war cars. They've had to basicaly build over half a car from scratch.

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Jetscuh
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Re: '68 Wagoneer Build - Euro Style

Post by Jetscuh »

And an update...

The return from the dip:

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I have a few more pics of some shoddy repairs and other missing areas. Ording some replacement panels and metal and hoping to have the body done and painted in 4-6 months.

No real surprises from the dip...there is actually more left than I thought! Interesting to see how deep or how not so deep rust can be...and also how much one of the previous owners loved shoddy tack welds! But I expect to find things like this on a 51 year old vehicle.

The engine is dissassembled too and ready for a dip and machining. Interestingly it is not the original 350 but still a 350...just from the early 70's. I don't really care either way.
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Chubbinius
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Re: '68 Wagoneer Build - Euro Style

Post by Chubbinius »

Wow, that really cleaned up nicely after the nice dip and soak. Floors actually look to be a bit better than when all they showed was rust.

The frame looks pretty solid now that it's stripped clean
1970 1414X Wagoneer "The Pig"
-Custom Special
-Dauntless 350 V8
-D27 front/D44 rear
2006 XK (65th Ann Edition)-DD

Topic author
Jetscuh
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Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:51 am
Location: Germany

Re: '68 Wagoneer Build - Euro Style

Post by Jetscuh »

Part of me still wants to junk the thing, haha. I expected some work, but I didn't think we'd have to go this far into it.

So, the frame is quite solid. It is not 100% straight though. I argued that I'm not sure any Wagoneer frame was ever 100% straight :D We'll also redo the motor mounts. As I said this did not come with its original '68 Buick 350 but a '73 (IIRC) Buick 350 and someone changes the motor mounts along the way, the welds aren't so great. We'll also ditch that hitch...that is um, an interesting set up.

The floors are quite thin and scattered with holes here and there, so they'll be replaced. A few spots in the roof too. The windshield area wasn't as bad/deep as I thought. My tailgate is roached, which I already new but picked one up off of a later model (pure luck I even found one) and we'll do some alterations to make it work for the older body.

Nothing too exciting to report with the doors. Those aren't bad.

Overall the dip cost less than I thought it would.

I know there are pros, cons, drawbacks, whatever to sand blasting vs. dipping, but dipping was really the only way to get everywhere...in the seams and all that. Then it is all metal ready to be cut and welded to.

We'll probably dip the engine block, dash, and metal bottom from the rear seat at some point.

Oh, one of my battles will be finding seat brackets!

letank
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Re: '68 Wagoneer Build - Euro Style

Post by letank »

thank you for the picts, great job.
How are the A pillars, this is a real weak point on most older rigs as the windshield gasket shrinks, the poorly treated metal rust really fast... at the base and the roof mount as well to avoid more surprises. Looks decent from the picts... a lot of putty was used in those roof areas as well as the cowl on the assembly line.

Yes the rear wheel wells are exactly that: deep wells, check the thickness by the rear bench pedestal at the rear wheel well forward area
Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)
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