Lift questions. Trying something different. I think

Area for Offroad Modification Tech
Post Reply

Topic author
Chatt_79
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:19 pm
Location: Chattanooga, TN

Lift questions. Trying something different. I think

Post by Chatt_79 »

New to the forum but have been reading and searching here and IFSJA for a few months now. Just got a 79 wagoneer 360/TH400/QT 2 weeks ago and when I get all the regular maintenance stuff up to snuff I'm going to be lifting it. This will be a 2nd vehicle for camping, weekend wheeling(i prefer rocks but we have our share of mud here in TN so it will see a bit of mud), bad weather rig. Wanting to fit 33's, and would rather not trim fenders. I was looking at SOA and shackle flip but between me and my wheeling buddies I don't feel confident that we can get it done right and from what I've read if it's not done right it can drive pretty poorly. I assumed having an offroad shop SOA it can get pricey. I'm wanting to get the best flex out of a non SOA lift and fit 33's. Here is my plan, unless you guys think it won't work or is a poor option.

Front
Skyjacker softride 4 inch springs
BJ's heavy duty 1 inch lift shackles

Rear
TT's fabworks shackle flip kit with stock springs

Also will be putting on extended brake lines, DPA, and Sway Bar quick disconnects.
After installing I'll measure and order shocks.

Couple of questions before I start seriously looking into this.
Do you guys think this will end up level?
I've heard the skyjacker softride is more of a 5-5.5 inch lift. So with the lift shackles i'm looking at 6 inches up front. Then the shackle flip kit yields around 7 inches but is adjustable by about 1/2 inch up or down so say 6.5 in the rear. This is just what I remember from searching/reading, if you guys have other experiences or opinions let me know.

Would the rear driveshaft need to be lengthened?

I'm running the TH400/QT so I'm assuming that at the least I'll have to lengthen my front driveshaft.
Do you guys think it'll bind and I'll need a high angle(tom woods) driveshaft?

What brand/model shocks do you guys recomend?
I have been looking at rancho rs9000xl's. I figured a little extra money spent on shocks is never a bad thing, and rancho's are Made in America.
Thanks for the guidance guys.
79 Wagoneer Limited 360/TH400/QT
User avatar

GWag89
Posts: 195
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:34 am
Location: Lynchburg VA

Re: Lift questions. Trying something different. I think

Post by GWag89 »

I am in the process of something similar with my GW. For my rig its a waste of time and $ to go SOA with the NT D44. This line of thinking has led me to search for suspension configurations that are outside of the box. I am currently running rustys 4" springs all around and the BJs shackles on the front (factory drive shafts work fine for me). This set up gives me 6" of lift on the front and 4" in the rear. the front height is good now im trying to bring the rear up to match + 1-2"

If the skyjacker springs provide as much lift as people claim and you run BJs shackle I think you would be very close to level with the TTF shackle flip and stock springs out back. the back might ride slightly higher until you fill up the gas tank, load the camping gear, and toss in a spare..then you will be setting level

here is another option to consider
http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=144373

Ford ranger shackle flip with 4" lift springs would also provide you with the lift you are looking for
James Stanley

89 Grand Wagoneer- 727/229/D44s
Front: 4"+ springs, 1"+ chevy shackle
Rear: Shackle Flip with 63" chevy springs
999 Offroad Skid Plate
4.0 swap in progress
User avatar

Stuka
Site Admin
Posts: 11789
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 5:53 pm
Location: CA
Contact:

Re: Lift questions. Trying something different. I think

Post by Stuka »

If you are concerned with drivability, do not put an extended shackle on the front with lift springs. Slightly longer can be a good thing as it prevents the shackle from flipping back and getting stuck. But a shackle that is 2" longer will screw with the caster angle (more so than with stock springs) and cause flightly steering.

An SOA is not overly difficult. Hardest part is welding the new spring perches on. Everything else is bolt on.

With that said, the back end is going to end up sitting higher than the front, which is ok for some.

The other issue is a result of having unbalanced spring rates. The front is going to be stiffer than the back (lift springs are always stiffer than flat springs). So having rear bump stops in the proper location will be very important. But you ill still end up with most of the articulation happening in back.
2017 JKU Rubicon
Pevious Jeeps: 1981 J10, 1975 Cherokee, 2008 JK, 2005 KJ, 1989 XJ
User avatar

GWag89
Posts: 195
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:34 am
Location: Lynchburg VA

Re: Lift questions. Trying something different. I think

Post by GWag89 »

I agree that the Bjs shackle with 4" springs will negatively impact steering.

another asymmetrical solution for the front end can be found in the vendor section
http://fsjnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=2771

combine the shackle reversal with 4" lift springs and that should give you 6" on the front. from my understanding of the shackle reversal it helps road manners and makes for a smooth ride.
James Stanley

89 Grand Wagoneer- 727/229/D44s
Front: 4"+ springs, 1"+ chevy shackle
Rear: Shackle Flip with 63" chevy springs
999 Offroad Skid Plate
4.0 swap in progress
User avatar

Stuka
Site Admin
Posts: 11789
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 5:53 pm
Location: CA
Contact:

Re: Lift questions. Trying something different. I think

Post by Stuka »

GWag89 wrote:I agree that the Bjs shackle with 4" springs will negatively impact steering.

another asymmetrical solution for the front end can be found in the vendor section
http://fsjnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=2771

combine the shackle reversal with 4" lift springs and that should give you 6" on the front. from my understanding of the shackle reversal it helps road manners and makes for a smooth ride.
Should be noted that it also requires a long travel drive shaft. Or the axle moving up could result in a broken t-case.


Sent from my iPhone 5S using Tapatalk
2017 JKU Rubicon
Pevious Jeeps: 1981 J10, 1975 Cherokee, 2008 JK, 2005 KJ, 1989 XJ

Topic author
Chatt_79
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:19 pm
Location: Chattanooga, TN

Re: Lift questions. Trying something different. I think

Post by Chatt_79 »

Stuka wrote: An SOA is not overly difficult. Hardest part is welding the new spring perches on. Everything else is bolt on.
I was originally considering SOA but got scared off. One of my offroading friends is a mechanic and can weld, but he's never attempted an SOA and was scared to try it. Plus I started reading about breaking springs and SOA's gone wrong. How common is it for people to break springs with SOA lifts? Does the TTFab rear shackle flip kit have the same issue?

I remember reading somewhere that a member was having trouble with his front shackles after a 6 inch spring lift and it was recommended that he get the bj's heavy duty lift shackles. Can't find the thread anymore, am I misremembering this? Can I put in a shim to correct the castor angles?

I didn't think about the spring rates. Good point. How bad of an issue would that be besides flexing more in the rear?

I like the idea of the shackle reversal kit for the front. I was borderline on having to get a new shaft up there anyways, with the height and the QT. Moving the front axle forward will actually decrease the angles and lessen wear and tear on the driveshaft.
Stuka wrote: Should be noted that it also requires a long travel drive shaft. Or the axle moving up could result in a broken t-case.
Did you mean a longer driveshaft or a long travel drive shaft? If long travel I don't quite understand, the axle travel should be the same as whatever lift springs I use, right? It would just moved foreward, thus needing a longer driveshaft? Or is there a change in the geometry of the axle travel that moves it toward the rear while under compression? Wow I'm really feeling my lack of knowledge on this stuff.

Thanks for the input guys.
79 Wagoneer Limited 360/TH400/QT
User avatar

Stuka
Site Admin
Posts: 11789
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 5:53 pm
Location: CA
Contact:

Re: Lift questions. Trying something different. I think

Post by Stuka »

People break springs for two reasons typically. One is improper bump stops. So the spring gets over flexed and causes it to become week. The other is hard offroading where the front tires get run into rocks pretty hard. this can result in bending the rear part of the main leaf. But this can happen with lift springs too. The rear does not have this issue.

With 6" springs the shackle can get flipped back and stuck. A longer shackle fixes it, but it only needs to be a little longer. 2" longer starts to have a noticeable effect on steering.

and long travel drive shaft. When you move the shackle to the rear, it changes how the axle moves. Our stock front shaft is intended to be extended, but not compressed. The slip needs to be longer as the axle will now be pushed back towards the t-case, instead of away from it as it travels up. There have been many that have broken their t-case by running out of slip on the drive shaft. Its a pretty messy thing to deal with on the trail. The one other thing to note is with the stock setup, as the axle droops the pinion points up, which is good for drive shaft angles. However with a rear shackle, the pinion points down. So many also need a high angle shaft if you are running more than 2-3 inches of lift.
2017 JKU Rubicon
Pevious Jeeps: 1981 J10, 1975 Cherokee, 2008 JK, 2005 KJ, 1989 XJ

Topic author
Chatt_79
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:19 pm
Location: Chattanooga, TN

Re: Lift questions. Trying something different. I think

Post by Chatt_79 »

Ok. You're really making me rethink this and just go ahead with an SOA.
79 Wagoneer Limited 360/TH400/QT

RamJetFSJ
Posts: 431
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:36 pm
Location: Carpinteria, CA

Re: Lift questions. Trying something different. I think

Post by RamJetFSJ »

Ive heard the Front Shackle Reversal with lift springs can cause some weird problems. I was looking at going that way and decided against it.

I would do spring over and high steering. Its a proven setup, and super flexy.

Or lift springs and cut the fenders a little. You can squeeze 33x10.5s in with a 4" lift and a little fender trimming on the bottom corners. Or cut a bunch with plenty of room for 33x12.5s.
80 Wag in 73 attire, Ram Jet 350 power
User avatar

GWag89
Posts: 195
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:34 am
Location: Lynchburg VA

Re: Lift questions. Trying something different. I think

Post by GWag89 »

Ive heard the Front Shackle Reversal with lift springs can cause some weird problems.
what did you hear? ive also looked into it and seen it done successfully with 2" lift springs.
James Stanley

89 Grand Wagoneer- 727/229/D44s
Front: 4"+ springs, 1"+ chevy shackle
Rear: Shackle Flip with 63" chevy springs
999 Offroad Skid Plate
4.0 swap in progress
User avatar

Stuka
Site Admin
Posts: 11789
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 5:53 pm
Location: CA
Contact:

Re: Lift questions. Trying something different. I think

Post by Stuka »

GWag89 wrote:
Ive heard the Front Shackle Reversal with lift springs can cause some weird problems.
what did you hear? ive also looked into it and seen it done successfully with 2" lift springs.
You have to make sure the spring geometry is pretty exact. Since our frames were designed to have the shackle in front, you have to move the front mount down to the correct location, which is not difficult, it just HAS to be done. It is also recommended that you cut and turn the C's to point the pinion up, as the pinion noses down when drooped with a rear shackle. So having good pinion angle is more important than with a rear shackle.
2017 JKU Rubicon
Pevious Jeeps: 1981 J10, 1975 Cherokee, 2008 JK, 2005 KJ, 1989 XJ

csuengr
Posts: 1290
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:24 am
Location: Sterling, CO

Re: Lift questions. Trying something different. I think

Post by csuengr »

Shackle reversal. Expensive solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
1977 Cherokee S, Ford 5.0, 5 speed, BW 1356, 33 x 10.50 BFG's. No longer my DD.
2007 Mercury Milan, 2.3L, 5-speed, now my DD. 29 mpg average.

RamJetFSJ
Posts: 431
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:36 pm
Location: Carpinteria, CA

Re: Lift questions. Trying something different. I think

Post by RamJetFSJ »

GWag89 wrote:
Ive heard the Front Shackle Reversal with lift springs can cause some weird problems.
what did you hear? ive also looked into it and seen it done successfully with 2" lift springs.
I wish I could find it again. I guess I wasn't able to find many people with a FSR and 4" lift springs, and the few i did find said it handled weird, and one even went back to regular shackle in the front setup. So I stopped looking into it.

I think one day I may try it, but chances are, ill skip right past it and go to a coil over setup.
80 Wag in 73 attire, Ram Jet 350 power
User avatar

GWag89
Posts: 195
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:34 am
Location: Lynchburg VA

Re: Lift questions. Trying something different. I think

Post by GWag89 »

thanks for the input. I have also considered it and read some informative tech on front shackle reversal. http://www.jeeptech.com/susp/elkcahs/

for me the Long slip DS is the most undesirable and expensive aspect of FSR. also decreased pinion angle at droop is a problem

I didnt mean to hi jack this thread and turn it into a discussion on shackle reversal but like i said I have recently considered it. after research over the past week or so I have decided against it. Im still left with basically the same issue as the OP. Im doing a rear shackle flip with 63" chevy springs and the back of the wag is going to set higher than the front with 4" lift springs. I have ran a BJs shackle in conjunction with the 4" springs and it negativly affected the caster. Maybe if i lowered the rear mount of the front spring 1-2" I could correct the caster and keep the lift gained by the longer shackle.

The only reason I am against SOA for my NT D44 is because its not wide enough or strong enough to throw money into it. I can weld and I do 95% of my own work but I cant see paying for flat top knuckles, high steer arm, drag link, and SOA perches just to be limited to 33x12.5s that will still be all over the leafs when turning (my 31x10.5s rubbed at full lock with stock wheels)

so im over here pondering legit ways to get my front end up another 2-3" all while maintaining SUA with 4" lift springs and NT D44. I know its not what most of yall recommend but its where im at right now in the evolution of my FSJ. When i go SOA its going to be with a 1 ton axle, I cant justify spending money on the NT
James Stanley

89 Grand Wagoneer- 727/229/D44s
Front: 4"+ springs, 1"+ chevy shackle
Rear: Shackle Flip with 63" chevy springs
999 Offroad Skid Plate
4.0 swap in progress

Topic author
Chatt_79
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:19 pm
Location: Chattanooga, TN

Re: Lift questions. Trying something different. I think

Post by Chatt_79 »

Yeah, I think I'm just going to go 4 inch then run 33x10.5 and cut a little to fit. I don't want have the expertise to do my own SOA and don't have to money to pay someone to do it. Plus I only do some moderate wheeling so hopefully this will be enough to keep up with my friends and their baby jeeps. Plus I just found a hole next to my front left drivers seat and who know how much that will cost to fix. Gonna pull the carpet this weekend and see how much rust there is.
79 Wagoneer Limited 360/TH400/QT
Post Reply