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I am curious what everyone's experiences are with General Grabbers and the new bfg at ko2? I am going to run 33x10.5s with my HC 4" lift on my stock slots. I know there are a few other options but unless I can be persuaded I am thinking between these two options.
The jeep will see tons of street miles, most off road is in the mountains (easy dirt with minor rocks), Snow in the winters when offroading (it does not snow at the house), it will also see extended desert excursions fwiw.
The only time I have ran the original bfg at I liked them but did not put that many miles on them. I really didn't get a well rounded opinion formed on them
Jay
1975 Jeep Wagoneer: 350 SBC, TH400, Q/T, D44's 3.54:1's. Hell Creek 4" lift with BFG KO2 33x10.5s.
1988 Jeep Wrangler: 305 SBC, TBI, 700r4, NP231c with SYE, 9" w/ Detroit and 4.11:1, 5.25" of lift, 31's. Done up as a Jurassic Park Jeep (Her's)
I to ran the old ko2s and was very happy with them. We have a couple of the new generals in the club and the guys are happy with the performance. 1 has wear issues but that is believed to be a vehicle problem. The Generals are noticeably heavier than other tires so can show up in ride and breaking quality especially when mounted on steel wheels if every thing is not up to spec.
79 Cherokee WT QT Golden Eagle white with gold windows "Pigger" only blows hubs the night before a road trip or the clodest night of year. Has only been towed cause of stupid.
Well its good to hear that people like both tires. I have read that the red letters are horrible in the snow. The problem is defining 'snow' is it blizzards they suck in or a dusting? Most all of the little snow I will see is fairly fresh snowfall on the dirt roads in the mountains.
The weight is a concern of mine, mostly for fuel economy loss as the Wagoneer is a daily.
I might have an in on General Tires, so If I can get them for an ever cheaper price that might push my decision. So far Tire Rack has the best prices on both. $173.58 for the BFG All terrain KO2's and $182 for the General Grabber Red Letters.
Jay
1975 Jeep Wagoneer: 350 SBC, TH400, Q/T, D44's 3.54:1's. Hell Creek 4" lift with BFG KO2 33x10.5s.
1988 Jeep Wrangler: 305 SBC, TBI, 700r4, NP231c with SYE, 9" w/ Detroit and 4.11:1, 5.25" of lift, 31's. Done up as a Jurassic Park Jeep (Her's)
I've run the BFG ATs and found that for an aggressive AT they wear really well [35-45K mile]. The worst was a set of Mickey Thompson MTxs that were shot in 25K miles. Only issue I've seen with the BFgs is side wall leaks when they get old. I had to replace a set with 50% tread on them because two of the four started leaking [5 year old tires].
Those are two very different tires. One is designed for the desert, one is an AT.
The AT will be the better driving tire by far. The Grabber will be a tougher tire, but do you need that? The Grabber will also wear faster as it uses a softer compound.
My experience with the BFG's in the snow is with a KO not a KO2 but I can't say it was a positive one. They were marginal at best in a heavy 2007 silverado 2500 duramax and positively blow in the snow on a light wrangler. My friend Noah, who runs the KO's on his wrangler, is going to buy some dedicated snow tires because they are so bad.
Cooper's all terrain offerings do a lot better in the snow. I run the AT3's on my dad's Sierra 1500 and they are on par if not better with the much more expensive and more heavily siped Michelin LTX MS2 tires that were previously on the truck. The Coopers are also wearing extremely well compared to the Michelin tires which were permanently scarred after a few lengthy trips on gravel. The sidewall is a little more gaudy compared to the classic smooth look of the BFG's but if you want a truly vintage looking tire Coopers Discoverer ST is the closest looking tire to the factory Goodyear Suburbanite tires I can find and do well in the snow even un studded on a 89 Suburban Wyatt uses for plowing snow.
You're the second person I've heard mention that they don't like the snow performance on the BFGs. What kind of snow conditions are you talking about? I the KOs on my Tacoma and they seemed to do well on the street, not deep (less than 6" deep) snow and on packed snow/icy roads. In the deep stuff, they didn't "paddle" all that well, though.
On the other hand, when I ran KM2s all year round, (I'd imagine the red labels would be similar) they did great in deep snow and ejected the snow easily at low speeds. However, they were scary in the packed snow/ice. That's why I ended up with Duratracs... they paddle well in the deep stuff and do well on packed snow/ice. (though I think the KOs were a little better on packed stuff)
1989 Grand Wagoneer - Rebuilt 360, 2" Alcans, 10" travel Gabriel Guadian shocks.
1996 Land Cruiser - 1HD-T Diesel, Gturbo (23psi), Wholesale Automatics 442f, F/R ARBs, 35" Duratracs, ARB Rear Bumper, OME 2" lift, home built sliders and aluminum belly skid
2000 Honda Civic - Integra GSR engine, transmission, shift linkage and axles, 200hp, 33 combined mpg
2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution 9 - 437hp/447ft-lb
Stuka wrote:Those are two very different tires. One is designed for the desert, one is an AT.
The AT will be the better driving tire by far. The Grabber will be a tougher tire, but do you need that? The Grabber will also wear faster as it uses a softer compound.
Yeah I know, with the limited selection of 33x10.5s that really limits my options. I have 0 experience with either tire personally. I thought the grabbers were supposed to have good lifetime? Better than mudders.
Jay
1975 Jeep Wagoneer: 350 SBC, TH400, Q/T, D44's 3.54:1's. Hell Creek 4" lift with BFG KO2 33x10.5s.
1988 Jeep Wrangler: 305 SBC, TBI, 700r4, NP231c with SYE, 9" w/ Detroit and 4.11:1, 5.25" of lift, 31's. Done up as a Jurassic Park Jeep (Her's)
Stuka wrote:Those are two very different tires. One is designed for the desert, one is an AT.
The AT will be the better driving tire by far. The Grabber will be a tougher tire, but do you need that? The Grabber will also wear faster as it uses a softer compound.
Yeah I know, with the limited selection of 33x10.5s that really limits my options. I have 0 experience with either tire personally. I thought the grabbers were supposed to have good lifetime? Better than mudders.
The Grabbers will wear better than some mud tires (Such as the KM2 which wears really poor unless you rotate them like crazy), but an AT is going to wear better.
Also wet and snow traction will be WAY better with the KO2.
Stuka wrote:Those are two very different tires. One is designed for the desert, one is an AT.
The AT will be the better driving tire by far. The Grabber will be a tougher tire, but do you need that? The Grabber will also wear faster as it uses a softer compound.
Yeah I know, with the limited selection of 33x10.5s that really limits my options. I have 0 experience with either tire personally. I thought the grabbers were supposed to have good lifetime? Better than mudders.
The Grabbers will wear better than some mud tires (Such as the KM2 which wears really poor unless you rotate them like crazy), but an AT is going to wear better.
Also wet and snow traction will be WAY better with the KO2.
That makes sense, most of my MT experience is with km2's and I did find their wear to be unsatisfactory, great otherwise.
Jay
1975 Jeep Wagoneer: 350 SBC, TH400, Q/T, D44's 3.54:1's. Hell Creek 4" lift with BFG KO2 33x10.5s.
1988 Jeep Wrangler: 305 SBC, TBI, 700r4, NP231c with SYE, 9" w/ Detroit and 4.11:1, 5.25" of lift, 31's. Done up as a Jurassic Park Jeep (Her's)
I have the Red Labels in 33x10.5 on my Wag. They are very heavy and very tough, and make very little noise on the highway considering how aggressive they look (at least when new). They will need siping for snow use, I think, as they will be horrible on ice. Siping is getting harder and harder to find places to have it done here is CA.
I would go with the KO2 in your case. (Are they available in 33x10.5 now??)
I found my KO's to be quite good in snow with my Grand Cherokee. They pulled me through fresh snow that was bottom of the front bumper high. They seemed to do pretty good on ice too. I never felt like I was going to get stuck on snow or ice and always seemed to have good control in those conditions too. I was running the GC in full time 4X4.
You're the second person I've heard mention that they don't like the snow performance on the BFGs. What kind of snow conditions are you talking about? I the KOs on my Tacoma and they seemed to do well on the street, not deep (less than 6" deep) snow and on packed snow/icy roads. In the deep stuff, they didn't "paddle" all that well, though.
They were ok on fresh snow but sucked on hard packed snow and ice. They just couldn't bite and get enough traction especially in the little wrangler. Just not enough sipe/void to dig in with while stopping. Now that we've had some snow for a couple days everyone with KO2's says they like em. I haven't gotten to try a pair yet but looking at the tracks they make is actually pretty impressive. you can see where they really grip and displace the hard packed stuff vs the old KO's that really didn't leave a mark. I think I'd run them if they were studdable.
Nikkormat wrote:
They were ok on fresh snow but sucked on hard packed snow and ice. They just couldn't bite and get enough traction especially in the little wrangler. Just not enough sipe/void to dig in with while stopping. Now that we've had some snow for a couple days everyone with KO2's says they like em. I haven't gotten to try a pair yet but looking at the tracks they make is actually pretty impressive. you can see where they really grip and displace the hard packed stuff vs the old KO's that really didn't leave a mark. I think I'd run them if they were studdable.
That makes sense. You're sitting at a higher elevation and I bet the snow sticks around a lot longer where you live.
OP: Which ever tire you end up with, post up your impressions on performance. The more data the better, if you ask me!
I'm excited with all this snow talk. We're supposed to get ~14" this evening/tonight here and I can't wait to drive on to work on my new tires tomorrow!
1989 Grand Wagoneer - Rebuilt 360, 2" Alcans, 10" travel Gabriel Guadian shocks.
1996 Land Cruiser - 1HD-T Diesel, Gturbo (23psi), Wholesale Automatics 442f, F/R ARBs, 35" Duratracs, ARB Rear Bumper, OME 2" lift, home built sliders and aluminum belly skid
2000 Honda Civic - Integra GSR engine, transmission, shift linkage and axles, 200hp, 33 combined mpg
2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution 9 - 437hp/447ft-lb
The Hell Creek 4" kit was ordered last week. Tom said to expect a 3 week turn around. Then I'll need to get tires, with the notion of about $450 for the red letters I'll be going that way.
Jay
1975 Jeep Wagoneer: 350 SBC, TH400, Q/T, D44's 3.54:1's. Hell Creek 4" lift with BFG KO2 33x10.5s.
1988 Jeep Wrangler: 305 SBC, TBI, 700r4, NP231c with SYE, 9" w/ Detroit and 4.11:1, 5.25" of lift, 31's. Done up as a Jurassic Park Jeep (Her's)
I have had at least 6 sets of the old style KO's, and lived in the mountains of VT. Lots of different types of snow, ice, mud, rocks, and stumps. Overall was pleased, but they really weren't a good "snow" tire. much better than a mud terrain, but really a compromise tire. They also didn't self clean very well, but I needed one tire that could do it all (or most of it).
Fast forward to today. I just finished (more or less) my Wag build, and live in Ca now. I'll be in more rocks and mud, and less snow. I too wanted 33x10.50's. After grueling research and a lot of conversations with local wheelers, I settled on the Toyo Open country MT...
I also make snow for a living, and travel to just about every mountain and ski resort in the west, from Montana, Idaho, Wash, Oregon, Ca, NV, AZ, and NM. I drive a 2015 F150 4x4 crew cab (company truck). I put about 10k on it since I got it in September. I go all over the mountains, on ski trails, in all kinds of conditions. mud, clay, sharp slab, bedrock, slush, ice, and fresh snow. I installed a set of the brand new KO2's about 2500 miles ago (in 285/70/17 - about 32.5x11). I needed a tire that would serve me well on long highway drives, still be quiet, and get through the rough stuff.
These things are amazing, and truly night and day difference from the old KO. they are "snowflake" rated for severe winter service duty, which my old ones weren't. The siping is deeper, and there is more of it. the tread void is larger than before too, even though at first glance it looks very similar to the old design. The sidewalls are significantly stronger than the old ones too, i can tell when I air down. I was in some downright awful conditions last week on Sugar Bowl, and Tahoe Donner, and these things just chewed it up and spit it out. 2" of fresh snow, with 4" of slush under that, mixed frozen chunks of earth, with soft muck and goo underneath... and I was on steep-ass ski trails, with no chains (I hadn't bought them yet for this size- in these early season conditions, before there's enough snow to use a cat or a sled, i use 4 chains) and I was confident and secure. They are really quiet on the highway, and resist hydroplaning as well, in high speed standing water situations.
If I could rewind (even though I only have a few hundred miles on the Toyos), I'd buy these KO2's for the Wag. They are that good, and versatile.
On the grabbers, I bought a lifted XJ that had a set on them. they were noisy, (albeit a bit worn) and sucked in nearly everything, except deep sand. I couldn't get them off fast enough - I had to suffer through a summer with them because i was low on $$.