1964 Jeep Wagoneer

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Silver Fox
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1964 Jeep Wagoneer

Post by Silver Fox »

Good Afternoon,

For whatever reason, I decided it would be a great idea to enter the FSJ world buy purchasing a 64 Kaiser Wagoneer in project condition.
potential.jpg
As you will see as I continue posting, I haven't fully (that's generous) decided what I'm going to do with it, but I'm definitely leaning way more towards resto-mod with emphasis on the mod. I ended up starting this endeavor at my wife's behest so I'm putting together a build with the fact that she will be the driver at least half of the time. Thus safety has become far more important as well as a few creature comforts. I'm also really looking forward to not being tied to keeping everything original since I don't have the heart to make any changes to my current classic.

So, I guess the purpose of this thread is to introduce myself, throw out a few ideas and most importantly get your thoughts and learn from your experience so as to not make any major mistakes. Hopefully there is some fun to be had as well.

The cosmetic needs are obvious. There will be a bit of body work and paint involved. She chose an original Willy's color from that year which I think will look great.

I believe that with the amount of things it requires to fit the bill, this is going to be a frame off job.

I'm sure that with your input, there's going to be much discussion about suspension, but for now I'm leaning towards a 4" lift, 4 wheel disc brake conversion, and 15" rims with 33s.

It currently has the original drivetrain. Unfortunately, the Tornado 230 isn't running. The seller indicated that it was most likely the distributor and the water pump is a known failure. As I'm building this for another whose priorities will be reliability -> fuel economy -> capability / power, along with the known issues of the 230 and expense/availability of parts, I'm thinking that a swap is in order. I know, I know - I'll just be another one of those guys, but I'm leaning towards a SBC and a TH400. An added benefit of the swap would be adding accessories like power steering, brakes and A/C to add a bit more comfort for her.

I think I have written a full page here so I'm going to end this post here. I am sure there will be more to come. Please let me know what your initial impressions are, what you think about my basic idea and anything else you have to say. Feel free to call me an idiot at any time, but all I see is a lot of potential here!

Thanks.
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Stuka
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Re: 1964 Jeep Wagoneer

Post by Stuka »

Welcome to the forum!

64's are cool early wags. However, if you really want it to be a driver, and with 4 wheel disc, you are basically looking at a full drive train swap. Meaning axles, engine, trans, and t-case. And while seeing original early wags is great, I rather see one restored and driving, even with a swapped drive train, then rotting away.

The stock axles are a Dana 27 front, and a 2-piece 19 spline D44 rear. 74-79 Wagoneers had 30 spline D44's front and rear and 76-79 all had disc brakes up front (optional on 74-75). But 74-79 had a two different offsets for the rear axle, neither was centered. The manual transmission version is the one you want. These axles are significantly stronger, they are nearly bolt in (brake lines and steering are different), and parts are MUCH easier to get.

For the engine, you will need to cut off the existing mounts off the frame and get new ones (several people make kits). You cant use adapters as the i6 frame mounts are too long for a V8. As for what engine, lots of choices that arent small block chevys. Plenty have swapped in Ford and Chrysler engines. Or even later AMC or Buick engines that came in FSJ's.

64's used an old (even at the time) bell crank steering setup. There isn't a modern (as in 70's) power steering conversion for this. Technically you could use a ford style system that uses a hydraulic ram, but even this is archaic. I know people have adapted a 70's style Saginaw system to early wags, but I do not know what is involved.

Thankfully, as far as body and interiors go, they changed a lot less through the years and make 70's parts will just work. The gauge cluster changed in '74, but things like seats and seat mounts, door panels, doors, windows, etc are much easier to swap between them.

Not sure if this is as much of a project as you were expecting, but figured I would at least give you an idea if you really want a safer (as far as stopping goes anyway), reliable, driver.
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Pevious Jeeps: 1981 J10, 1975 Cherokee, 2008 JK, 2005 KJ, 1989 XJ
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tgreese
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Re: 1964 Jeep Wagoneer

Post by tgreese »

Yes, welcome!

IMO the earliest of these vehicles (ie '62-65) are only suited to restoration, keeping all the archaic systems and appreciating it for what it is. I would go further than Stuka and say that while these earliest Wagoneers were advanced in concept, they were burdened with an archaic and problematic drive train at release. Just a few years later saw great advances in the quality and durability of the mechanical components.

You can get the same look from a later example by adding the iconic grille, and start off with a moderately modern platform. From an effort-required and economic POV, starting with a later platform seems like the obvious choice. Your plan for this vehicle seems a bit unrealistic, if you are thinking of substituting components piece by piece.

One possibility - you could use this Jeep as a body donor. Look around for a later Wagoneer that is totally rusted, and then swap this body onto that chassis. The floors change a bit, but you could make it work. The '80-up examples rust out the frame a lot, so be aware of that.

If it were me, I would keep it stock and appreciate it for the historic old car that it is. I'd drive it, and use it like it was intended. That's a cool Jeep, but not much potential for a build-up.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.

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Silver Fox
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Re: 1964 Jeep Wagoneer

Post by Silver Fox »

Thank you both for your replies.

Tgreese, that was my original intent, and I am obviously flip-flopping between the possibilities. Fortunately, there isn't a deadline to be met so there is plenty of time to make a decision. Does your opinion change with the fact that it wouldn't have to be a piece by piece swap? My intent here was to run the idea by the community and get guidance to work to an end design with those things in mind. I don't have my heart set on anything being the "right" way, but I certainly appreciate it when someone tells me not to head down the wrong fork in the road.

Stuka, I did indeed know that this was going to be a huge project. I think I should have clarified the use of this vehicle isn't meant to replace the daily driver, but to be our primary vehicle for our outdoor adventures, but without risking life or limb in order to get where we're going, say on a back highway in our rural area.

Fortunately it's early enough into this project that no final decisions have been made yet, thus the wrong ones haven't been made yet.

I appreciate the insight and would be happy to hear more.
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tgreese
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Re: 1964 Jeep Wagoneer

Post by tgreese »

Silver Fox wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 6:26 am Thank you both for your replies.

Tgreese, that was my original intent, and I am obviously flip-flopping between the possibilities. Fortunately, there isn't a deadline to be met so there is plenty of time to make a decision. Does your opinion change with the fact that it wouldn't have to be a piece by piece swap? My intent here was to run the idea by the community and get guidance to work to an end design with those things in mind. I don't have my heart set on anything being the "right" way, but I certainly appreciate it when someone tells me not to head down the wrong fork in the road.
...
Well, there's nothing stopping you really. Your plan will be like building a hot rod from a '40 Ford - not much of the original vehicle will be left other than the body. Can't use the axles, can't use the steering, can't use the transmission, can't use the engine, can't use the brakes, can't use the drive shafts, can't use the transfer case ... I expect you can build it on the existing frame. The post-mount suspension is specific to the earlier models, and there is not much support for suspension kits and such. Some, not a lot. It will look like a '64 Wagoneer, but so does a '74 or '84 with that grille. This platform existed with no change in appearance (other than bright trim) until 1991 IIRC.

Is this a manual or automatic transmission Jeep? The automatic was a Borg-Warner (like in a Studebaker or Packard) with a single-speed Dana 21 (?) transfer case. This was a ground-breaking vehicle, the first 4x4 with an automatic, and I guess they had not figured out that low range was useful even with the torque multiplication of an automatic. Kinda neat, if not very modern. In 1965 Jeep abandoned the 230 OHC engine and that automatic setup and went with the AMC engines (327 V8 and 232 six) and GM TH400, with the two-speed Dana 20. Was it that year they abandoned the awful Ross steering and went with GM Saginaw steering? Then or soon after.

I see you have palm trees in your picture... perchance is this in California? Using the '64 as a base will gain some advantage in that state since it's exempt from the emissions laws, and you can do pretty much anything you want with it. If I were going to go Chevy, I'd use a modern MPI V8 and overdrive automatic. The NP241C transfer case was used for a few years in GM trucks and is passenger drop - with the right donor, you could get the whole shebang. Truck axles will be too wide. Later Wagoneers had decent axles, with an open Dana 44 front with disk brakes, and either the flanged Dana 44 or the AMC Corporate axle in the rear. The Corporate axle in these Jeeps does not have the issues that it has in the CJs, and is broadly equivalent to the Dana 44.

There's nothing really wrong with what you want to do ... I'm sure you can find these earliest Wagoneers out there that are preserved in their original form. You won't be depriving the world of the last surviving example. There are more rare variants, like the 2-door Wagoneers, IFS Wagoneers, panel Wagoneers that you could argue more strongly for preserving. If you're up for a potentially lengthy project, and it's what you want, then by all means go ahead.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.

Triumph215
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Re: 1964 Jeep Wagoneer

Post by Triumph215 »

My only parameter staring out was round headlights. Over and over again I was advised to find a late 70's rig because most of what needs to be upgraded is already upgraded, that has already saved me thousands in time and money.
On the other hand I have a sweet 1964 Triumph TR4 with a 215 Olds V8/BW 5 speed in it and nothing is stock, everything has to be fabricated and rewired. I love the car but it gets old not being able to buy anything off the shelf.
With that said I"m leaning towards an LS conversion even though I have the 401 running great now.
Anything that respects the truck will be a good thing, better on the road than rusting away in a field.
1964 Triumph TR4 with 1964 Olds 215 heart transplant
1977 Wagoneer
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Yeller
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Re: 1964 Jeep Wagoneer

Post by Yeller »

^^^^^^^^
couldn't agree more. I have a 74 Bronco that has a hand built chassis, suspension, roll cage and all GM drivetrain, including axles. Literally the only things that came from ford is the body, even the dash is aftermarket. I get a lot of flak from the Ford camp, those that get to pushy I just remind them that I could have left it on the trailer that was headed to the scrap yard, they smile and say OK yes better than that.

My hat is off to the guys that do concourse restorations, its just not for me. I'd much rather see the image and spirit of the vehicle be preserved and it get used regularly than to collect dust in a garage because its archaic and not fun or worse, rot in a field because "I'm going to restore it one day". These vehicles were built to be driven, loved and enjoyed.
The bus I ride is so short it is a yellow Smart Car full of squirrels, monkeys and clowns.

1970 J2500 Resto Mod
https://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/viewt ... 12&t=21395

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Topic author
Silver Fox
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Re: 1964 Jeep Wagoneer

Post by Silver Fox »

Well, after much thought and planning I have decided to proceed. I will have a shop for a year beginning in about two weeks and hope that I can accomplish what I would like to in that time. Since I'm doing a frame off, getting the frame cleaned, inspected and treated. Then start working on the suspension.

I am having a difficult time finding the rear axle in the MT version. Fronts seem to be everywhere, as do a lot of the automatic rears. I have tried the junkyard search sites, etc. Can anyone provide a source that I'm neglecting? I was hoping to find a set together to avoid double paying freight.

goldhammer88
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Re: 1964 Jeep Wagoneer

Post by goldhammer88 »

Take a look for '80 and up rear axle. Will net you a centered diff, 6 on 5 1/2" bolt pattern. If you end up with a 5 stud front 44, you can do a fairly easy swap to GM 6 on 5 1/2 spindles, hubs and rotors. ie 1/2 ton or big Blazer. Only issue would be matching the gearing. 80 and up were driver side drop front diffs, ala Ford, meaning doing trans tunnel mods for clearance.
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tgreese
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Re: 1964 Jeep Wagoneer

Post by tgreese »

What exactly are you looking for? Do you care about the hub pattern or the ratio? 5 on 5.5" or 6 on 5.5"?

You can change the later 6 on 5.5" front axle to 5 on 5.5" using Ford hubs.

The Wagoneer Corporate rear axle from '80-90ish is a fine axle and is centered.

Jeep used a 5 on 5.5" Dana 44 on the rear of pre-73 Wagoneers, and they will all be centered. Some '73s too, without the Quadratrac. The flanged axles start in '69-70ish I recall.

The CJ guys go full-floater conversion on the tapered rear 44 pretty often. This will give you comparable strength to the flanged rear 44 and the advantages of a full-floater. Use Dana 30 front spindles and hubs. You can put locking hubs on the rear for easy flat towing - appealing to the CJ guys. I expect you'll need to have axle shafts made (Moser, Dutchman), but it should be no different otherwise from the CJ.

If you are stuck on 6 on 5.5" Dana 44 rear centered they are comparatively scarce.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.

Topic author
Silver Fox
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Re: 1964 Jeep Wagoneer

Post by Silver Fox »

I wish I knew. I was just running with the advice that you fellows had given me previously and was looking for a set of 76-79 D44s from a Wagoneer with the intent of rebuilding/regearing to 4.10.

Ended up deciding on an LS swap and a 4L60E. Aside from that she's a blank canvas, any and all ideas will be considered.

I'm not stuck on anything. My entire purpose of joining this forum was to get input and knowledge from you guys and your experience. Steer me in the right direction and I'll get going from the bottom up.
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tgreese
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Re: 1964 Jeep Wagoneer

Post by tgreese »

Since this is a frame-off and you're going to regear, I'd guess the '80-up axles would be easiest. These will be driver drop. I expect there are more driver-drop chain-driven transfer cases that would bolt up to the 4L60E. Good possibility this will interfere with the factory gas tank. I think your only option for passenger drop is a NP241C which was restricted to a few years. I'm getting in over my depth here ... you need more knowledgeable members to weigh in.

I don't know how to make the axle picture more simple. Suggest you make a table by year-range and put in the characteristics.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.

goldhammer88
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Re: 1964 Jeep Wagoneer

Post by goldhammer88 »

With that powertrain, I'd look for a 76-79 front and 80 up rear, if you want to stay with a passenger drop front. Most all rears from then were either 2.73 or 3.31's. 4.10 gear sets available for both of those axles. No swapping or mix and match needed for lug pattern, and already have decent front brakes and 11" rear drums. Disc upgrade for rears readily available. Late 70's Eldorado calipers for keeping a park brake function, others may work as well.

Tim might have a better handle on transfer cases. All the later GM stuff is driver drop, most with a push button dash shift for 2, 4 and low range

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Silver Fox
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Re: 1964 Jeep Wagoneer

Post by Silver Fox »

Thank you tgreese. Fortunately I'm fairy functional in Excel and can do just that.

Goldhammer:
That sounds like good news to me! The 76-79 fronts are readily available in my area but the rear was the real issue. I was getting a bit worried when you mentioned the fuel tank, but the stock one is junk already so a new one was planned and (hopefully) I can make something work. Fortunately, blow molds and HDPE are pretty versatile.

I'll give this some time to let others weigh in before placing any orders, but this is exactly the kind of guidance I was hoping for. Thank you both.

goldhammer88
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Re: 1964 Jeep Wagoneer

Post by goldhammer88 »

Just remember you want wagoner or narrow track Cherokee axles. The two door Cherokee's with the factory flares are a wider axle

Topic author
Silver Fox
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Re: 1964 Jeep Wagoneer

Post by Silver Fox »

I was able to find an 84 rear and a 79 front both off of Wagoneers as close to local as I think I'm getting here. $700 for both with residential delivery.

Should we have the transfer case discussion before proceeding with this purchase?
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tgreese
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Re: 1964 Jeep Wagoneer

Post by tgreese »

I can tell you for certain -

The '84 rear will work with any transfer case without an offset output. There may be other obscure ones, but the only Jeep transfer cases with an offset rear output are the Dana 18 (geared tranfer case with origins at WWII) and the original Borg-Warner Quadratrac used only behind the TH400 in Jeeps '73-79. AFAIK (as far as I know) all the New Process chain-driven transfer cases, like those compatible with the GM overdrive automatics, are centered. The '84 Wagoneer came with some variety of NP TC.

The '79 front axle is passenger drop, and your transfer case choice must match this. This includes the geared Dana 20 (already in your Jeep), the geared Dana 300 (an excellent choice, but getting less plentiful), and the NP241C mentioned above from a Chevy. There may be other options I am not aware of. Maybe a specialty aftermarket case too, like the Atlas? but $$$.

The D20 will require adapting the transmission. Almost all D300s have the circular NP pattern which would match the output from 4WD GM overdrive automatics. You need to figure out the clocking and the spline count - this reaches the extent of my knowledge. You could call Novak and ask them, if you can't figure it out online. Realize they are a business and would default to selling you their products if they could. Online will tell you more about possible junkyard solutions.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.

Topic author
Silver Fox
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Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:10 am

Re: 1964 Jeep Wagoneer

Post by Silver Fox »

Thank you.

From what I have read online the D20 is a pretty solid transfer case? Is there any shame in rebuilding it and just adapting to the transmission? Is the Dana 300 far superior? I have seen one or two online after a cursory search due to your post.

goldhammer88
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Re: 1964 Jeep Wagoneer

Post by goldhammer88 »

Some other older choices might be the NP 203, full time from mid 70's GM. Put a part time kit in it. Chain drive. Another would be the NP 205 also from GM. Gear drive. Both have 2:1 low, but can use adapters to add a 203 low range box and get 4:1. The 300 has around a 2.62:1 low range. Was also used by IH in scouts, but is an oddball "texas shaped" bolt pattern.
Depending on how much HP you're looking at with the LS, and how heavy the right foot is, the 20 could be a little light duty, at least IMO. The 20 is basically a little heavier duty straight thru version of the 18.

Novak and Advance are the go-to's for adapters, Andrew might have newer case choices that have come out since I really was playing under rigs.

goldhammer88
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Re: 1964 Jeep Wagoneer

Post by goldhammer88 »

300 is aluminum case, 20 is cast iron. 20 is going to be a 2:1 low, vs the 2.62 in the 300..

Don't see an issue with the 20 if moderate HP and senseable foot. Depends if adapters are available for the transmission.
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