79 j10

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Chatterbox
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79 j10

Post by Chatterbox »

Got to spend a week using this as my daily driver at deer camp and get to know her a little better. Got a BJ's front bumper on order and picking up my T18 I had adapted to the 258. Taking the t15 out this month. Goals this year are fix floor pans, new seats, efi, lift and some body work.
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tgreese
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Re: 79 j10

Post by tgreese »

Ok! How are you adapting the T-18? If you use a Ford input shaft, the overall length is going to be a little shorter than the factory T-18 installation. It won't be a half-foot shorter like a V8 would be, but not exact. Interested - please report how it turns out.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
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Chatterbox
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Re: 79 j10

Post by Chatterbox »

I bought a t18 with bell housing and spacer for a jeep v8. Was going to swap a 360 in but after two years the I6 runs so good decided not to bother. I just ordered a short mainshaft and had it installed. That's what cjs and fsj used with the I6. I'm keeping the parts incase the 258 dies and I go with a v8. This isn't a Ford or IH t18 but a AMC t18A with 6.32 to 1 1st.
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tgreese
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Re: 79 j10

Post by tgreese »

What year J-truck was your T-18 originally for? I am quite familiar with the issues here. Not to cause trouble, but there's at least a couple of ways to do this, each with a different group of parts. If you use the Jeep 7" deep bellhousing (3215152), the Jeep T-18 uses a steel plate adapter with the 258 about 5/8" thick. Same bell as your T-15. If you use the '79 or earlier parts, you can change from a V8 to a 6 by fitting a shorter input shaft, and a plate instead of the long adapter - assuming these parts are available.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.

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Chatterbox
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Re: 79 j10

Post by Chatterbox »

I'm not really sure. Here is my t15 and t18 before I had the mainshaft changed. Just had a short main shaft installed. Looks like both bell housings are the same. Just the spacer is different.
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1978J10REDWHITE
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Re: 79 j10

Post by 1978J10REDWHITE »

When you do the EFI, Post your progress . There are at least three different EFI systems to choose from I consider for my project, so always looking for first hand experience to help make decisions on the learning curve.
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tgreese
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Re: 79 j10

Post by tgreese »

Chatterbox wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:03 pm I'm not really sure. Here is my t15 and t18 before I had the mainshaft changed. Just had a short main shaft installed. Looks like both bell housings are the same. Just the spacer is different.
That thick adapter moves the V8 engine forward so the transmission stays put (shifters in the same place) and the engine does not interfere with the firewall. A truck with a T-15 and a V8 has a similar appearing but different pattern long adapter.

There is no spacer with the T-15 and 258. The bells you show are what is sometimes called the T-15 bell (Jeep PN 3215152), because it bolts up directly to the T-14 and T-15. This bell was in use for all FSJ manual transmissions 'through 1979, and for many '70s CJs and Commandos with those transmissions. The Jeep T-18 case is a different pattern from the T-15, and requires an adapter to that bellhousing.

To use that bellhousing with the Jeep T-18 and 258, you need a thinner plate adapter made of iron that was Jeep factory equipment for FSJs with the 258 through 1979, and many CJs with the T-18. That setup also needs an input shaft that is the right length for that adapter and the T-15 bell. AFAIK, neither the input shaft or the adapter are widely available parts, and could only be sourced from another Jeep truck (ie a wreck) with the T-18 and 258. There were not a lot of them. The adapter from a CJ will work, but the similar input shaft used in the CJs with the T-15 bell, plate and T-18 will not work because the gear ratios are different.

Are you using one of those bells now? Is there a 5/8" thick iron plate adapter between your T-18 and the bellhousing?
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.

Topic author
Chatterbox
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Re: 79 j10

Post by Chatterbox »

Currently the t15 is installed and running. So your saying the v8 bell housing won't bolt up to my 258 and I need a 5/8 spacer also that also requires a longer mainshaft? I don't have a 5/8 spacer.
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tgreese
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Re: 79 j10

Post by tgreese »

The V8 bell housing and the 258 bell housing are identical. The bell housing bolts up to the 258, no problem. It won't bolt up to the T-18 without the factory adapter plate and input shaft.

Look at what you have. The V8 setup has an adapter that's about 5" long between the bell housing and the transmission. You need an adapter.

There are other ways to connect the Jeep T-18 to a 258, but they won't be the same overall length as the Jeep factory 258/T-18 combo.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.

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Chatterbox
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Re: 79 j10

Post by Chatterbox »

I had the adapter for v8 removed and a new mainshaft installed. From the transmission to the end of the shaft is 6 1/2 inches now. Yea I see the bell housing I have won't bolt to the T18. Can I just use a cj t150 or t18 bell housing?
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tgreese
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Re: 79 j10

Post by tgreese »

I believe that's the Ford transmission stickout, and you got a Ford T-18 input shaft. The T-150 bell is a Ford pattern at the transmission side, and the right depth, but won't match the Jeep T-18 case. Won't bolt up, but I recall you can modify the T-150 bell to work with the Jeep case. You can buy this bell housing aftermarket - same as the T-176 bell housing.

Again, the result of this will be shorter overall than the factory setup with the plate adapter. You may have to move the engine back or modify the transmission mounting and driveshaft lengths... you'll just have to try it.

The only Jeep bell housing with a T-18 pattern that might work is the '77-79 T-18 bell housing from a CJ-5 or CJ-7, or perhaps the bell housing from an '80-up J20 with the T-18. I don't know for certain here. Neither of these are widely available, and not being made today.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.

threepiece
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Re: 79 j10

Post by threepiece »

Chatterbox wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 11:55 am I just ordered a short mainshaft and had it installed. That's what cjs and fsj used with the I6. I'm keeping the parts incase the 258 dies and I go with a v8.
This may be part of the misunderstanding here. First, to clarify, what you bought is an input shaft not a main shaft. The CJ Input shaft is somewhat shorter than the FSJ-I 6 input shaft by about two inches. If you happen to find a FSJ I6 input shaft get the bearing retainer that goes with it as well.

Another option you may consider is to shorten your V8 input shaft and bearing retainer. I have looked into this at one time and discovered it could be done using a milling machine and lathe. You would then only need the cast iron adapter between the T18 and bell.
I used to name my FSJ’s after their previous owners, I realized I had too many with five named Rick.

Dang raccoons again!

Rust is a color too.
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tgreese
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Re: 79 j10

Post by tgreese »

threepiece wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:44 am
Chatterbox wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 11:55 am I just ordered a short mainshaft and had it installed. That's what cjs and fsj used with the I6. I'm keeping the parts incase the 258 dies and I go with a v8.
This may be part of the misunderstanding here. First, to clarify, what you bought is an input shaft not a main shaft. The CJ Input shaft is somewhat shorter than the FSJ-I 6 input shaft by about two inches. If you happen to find a FSJ I6 input shaft get the bearing retainer that goes with it as well.
I don't want to be "that guy who corrects everything on the internet" - but this is not correct.

The CJ ('72-75 CJ and '72-73 Commando, both with the 258) and the 258 FSJ ('72-79) input shaft for the T-18 are exactly the same length. Their only difference is the number of teeth to match the cluster. The FSJ T-18 has a 6.32:1 1st gear and has 17 teeth. The CJ's 4.02:1 1st gear has 23 teeth. Of course, the rest of the gears in the transmission are different to provide the different set of ratios between the transmissions.

The bellhousing and plate adapter for these applications are exactly the same. The same parts, as I describe above. Please read my earlier posts in this thread.

The '76 CJ is an oddball, with the close ratio transmission and a different '76-79 bell housing and unique input shaft.

The '77-79 CJ had its own wide-ratio T-18 with a unique input shaft and bellhousing. These transmissions are quite desirable and sell for a premium price on the used parts market.

What is typically used in a Jeep long-shaft T-18 is the FORD input shaft. This will be the right length for the Jeep T-150/T-176 bellhousing, sold aftermarket under PN 8133951. Parts Mike sells a kit to convert to this shaft. FORD, not Jeep. Shorter OAL than the setup used with the 258 FSJ.

http://www.partsmike.com/index.php/prod ... stallation

No Jeep ever came with this input shaft. It creates a transmission that is a mix of FORD and Jeep parts.
Another option you may consider is to shorten your V8 input shaft and bearing retainer. I have looked into this at one time and discovered it could be done using a milling machine and lathe. You would then only need the cast iron adapter between the T18 and bell.
I have seen this done. The only question might be whether the resulting shaft has the proper temper in the machined areas to be durable. And whether you can connect with a machinist who can make your part for a reasonable price. You will still need the 3215152 bell housing shown above, and the 992667 plate adapter, to go from the T-14/T-15 pattern to the Jeep T-18 pattern.

Sorry if this comes off as arrogant or repetitive.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.

threepiece
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Re: 79 j10

Post by threepiece »

tgreese wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:24 am
threepiece wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:44 am
Chatterbox wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 11:55 am I just ordered a short mainshaft and had it installed. That's what cjs and fsj used with the I6. I'm keeping the parts incase the 258 dies and I go with a v8.
This may be part of the misunderstanding here. First, to clarify, what you bought is an input shaft not a main shaft. The CJ Input shaft is somewhat shorter than the FSJ-I 6 input shaft by about two inches. If you happen to find a FSJ I6 input shaft get the bearing retainer that goes with it as well.
I don't want to be "that guy who corrects everything on the internet" - but this is not correct.
Sorry if this comes off as arrogant or repetitive.
Not at all Tim. You clearly have a greater understanding than I do.

My comment was based on an experience I had more than twenty years ago. At the time I was installing a Ford T18 into a 258 powered CJ. I took the opportunity to compare input shaft lengths with one from an FSJ. I clearly remember being disappointed when I discovered the FSJ shaft being more than one inch longer. I’ll go back and read your comments to determine the applications.
I used to name my FSJ’s after their previous owners, I realized I had too many with five named Rick.

Dang raccoons again!

Rust is a color too.
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Phils67
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Re: 79 j10

Post by Phils67 »

tgreese wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 3:09 pm What year J-truck was your T-18 originally for? I am quite familiar with the issues here. Not to cause trouble, but there's at least a couple of ways to do this, each with a different group of parts. If you use the Jeep 7" deep bellhousing (3215152), the Jeep T-18 uses a steel plate adapter with the 258 about 5/8" thick. Same bell as your T-15. If you use the '79 or earlier parts, you can change from a V8 to a 6 by fitting a shorter input shaft, and a plate instead of the long adapter - assuming these parts are available.
This topic of long input T18 swaps to the I6 has always intrigued me. Here's my two cents because I did it. Use a T176 bell housing on a long input J-truck T18 and go to a local steel yard and get a 12x12 chunk of steel that is 1.8 inches thick. Find someone if you don't have the means yourself to cut out the pilot/seal area and shape it to meet your needs. Drill and tap your holes to the appropriate placement. Install, enjoy. I did this for a total of $80 and it worked well. My application required an adjustable release bearing from, if I recall, Novak. I have the adjustment measurement for that out in the shop if you need it so you aren't putting the transmission in and out a million times (13 attempts here). Unless it's been done in the last 10 years, nobody made an adapter for that setup. Transmission falls pretty damn close to the original placement.
1967 Gladiator J2000, 1998 4.0L OBD2, T18, D20 twin sticks, D44HD/D60, Detroit lockers, 3.73s, 4wheel disc brake, FSSR, Dakota digital, etc.
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tgreese
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Re: 79 j10

Post by tgreese »

If you have the means to make your own adapter plate, you can mate just about any engine with any manual transmission. One condition - you need for the input shaft length to be longer than the bell housing depth. Then you fill the difference with your adapter.

Another way to approach this - take the Jeep transfer case adapter and main shaft and add them to a Ford T-18. You'll need to drill some holes and fill others with threaded plugs, but it will work. Ford transmissions will work unmodified with the Jeep T-150 or T-176 bell, in most cases, mating with your choice of 3rd-gen AMC engine. Covered on the Novak site. The CJ guys have done this a lot - plenty of discussion on those sites if you want more.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.
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Phils67
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Re: 79 j10

Post by Phils67 »

tgreese wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:18 pm If you have the means to make your own adapter plate, you can mate just about any engine with any manual transmission. One condition - you need for the input shaft length to be longer than the bell housing depth. Then you fill the difference with your adapter.

Another way to approach this - take the Jeep transfer case adapter and main shaft and add them to a Ford T-18. You'll need to drill some holes and fill others with threaded plugs, but it will work. Ford transmissions will work unmodified with the Jeep T-150 or T-176 bell, in most cases, mating with your choice of 3rd-gen AMC engine. Covered on the Novak site. The CJ guys have done this a lot - plenty of discussion on those sites if you want more.
The CJ guys do it quite often but that's using Ford or IH input shafts or complete transmissions. It's a whole other animal when working with the J-truck long input type T18s. Those aren't the easiest modified. If going from a 6 to a 6 there's ways, but nothing off the shelf to my knowledge
1967 Gladiator J2000, 1998 4.0L OBD2, T18, D20 twin sticks, D44HD/D60, Detroit lockers, 3.73s, 4wheel disc brake, FSSR, Dakota digital, etc.
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Phils67
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Re: 79 j10

Post by Phils67 »

Probl always falls to the shifter location. Unless you're willing to hack up a transmission tunnel to relocate the stick you're going to have to fab you're own adapter
1967 Gladiator J2000, 1998 4.0L OBD2, T18, D20 twin sticks, D44HD/D60, Detroit lockers, 3.73s, 4wheel disc brake, FSSR, Dakota digital, etc.
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tgreese
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Re: 79 j10

Post by tgreese »

Phils67 wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 3:56 pm
tgreese wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 3:09 pm What year J-truck was your T-18 originally for? I am quite familiar with the issues here. Not to cause trouble, but there's at least a couple of ways to do this, each with a different group of parts. If you use the Jeep 7" deep bellhousing (3215152), the Jeep T-18 uses a steel plate adapter with the 258 about 5/8" thick. Same bell as your T-15. If you use the '79 or earlier parts, you can change from a V8 to a 6 by fitting a shorter input shaft, and a plate instead of the long adapter - assuming these parts are available.
This topic of long input T18 swaps to the I6 has always intrigued me. Here's my two cents because I did it. Use a T176 bell housing on a long input J-truck T18 and go to a local steel yard and get a 12x12 chunk of steel that is 1.8 inches thick. Find someone if you don't have the means yourself to cut out the pilot/seal area and shape it to meet your needs. Drill and tap your holes to the appropriate placement. Install, enjoy. I did this for a total of $80 and it worked well. My application required an adjustable release bearing from, if I recall, Novak. I have the adjustment measurement for that out in the shop if you need it so you aren't putting the transmission in and out a million times (13 attempts here). Unless it's been done in the last 10 years, nobody made an adapter for that setup. Transmission falls pretty damn close to the original placement.
I had to scratch my head about this, until I understood what you were suggesting. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Take the V8 T-18 with the long shaft (shown above) and make a T-14 to Ford adapter plate, 1.8" thick. Novak sells a product like this for the GM bells, which are the same depth as the Jeep T-150 and T-176 bells (Ford pattern to Gen 3 AMC). You end up with a plate adapter plus the original adapter, and the same overall length as the T-14 bell and adapter shown above.

You could probably make this work with the Ford pattern bell too - https://www.novak-adapt.com/catalog/ada ... /kit-1415/ - though this would be a good opportunity to go late-model Chevy if so inclined.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.
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Phils67
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Re: 79 j10

Post by Phils67 »

Sort of. What I was saying basically is the early I6 (230/232) jeep T18 with the long input will work from a J-truck against the AMC version of the I6 by doing this spacer with an AMC bell housing. So the bolt pattern for the bell is proper to the engine and the transmission is correct for the vehicle with proper shifter location without modifying the input shaft. Idk man, I was like 8 beers deep when I replied that last night haha. But it can be done. That's all I was saying. Maybe I just read the whole post wrong lol I had a good buzz going.
1967 Gladiator J2000, 1998 4.0L OBD2, T18, D20 twin sticks, D44HD/D60, Detroit lockers, 3.73s, 4wheel disc brake, FSSR, Dakota digital, etc.
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