Talk me out of a 4" lift kit from BJSoffroad

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kjandb
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Talk me out of a 4" lift kit from BJSoffroad

Post by kjandb »

I'm leaning towards the 4" kit from BJ's mostly because of my ignorance. I'm not only new to FSJ's but new to truck restoration in general - but am willing to learn. In my mind, the 'kit' makes it an easier choice - built and designed for my rig. A good friend is willing to help me - and he wants to change the front to over the axle and then block the back. And I'm just wanting enough of a lift to get it off the ground a bit - maybe fit 33's if I can.

Any suggestions - are there other kits or lift options I should be looking at? Is 4" the right number?


Kit: https://www.bjsoffroad.com/BJs-Off-Road ... _1298.html

My Rig:
Image

My inspiration rig - and the perfect combo of lift and tire size:
Image
Last edited by kjandb on Sat Nov 06, 2021 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
'71 Wagoneer - 4" BJ's Leaf Lift - early 360 - Avocado Mist ???
S Idaho

will e
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Re: Talk me out a 4" lift kit from BJSoffroad

Post by will e »

Greetings.
Tire size will influence many decisions in your build. If you want to go 33" tires a 4" lift will not suffice with out some 'fender trimming'. You will also find that the 33" tires with your stock axle gears will make the acceleration a bit sluggish, especially if you have the taller stock gears and not the 3.31 gears that came on some of rigs.

Spring lifts tend to provide a bit harsher ride compared to stock but most people find a 4" spring lift to be acceptable in terms of comfort and drivability. With a 4" spring only lift you can fit 31" tires without trimming the fenders and with minimum rubbing. Here's my old waggy sporting a 4" rusty lift and 31" tires:

Image

My truck came with the 3.31 axle gears and with the 31" tires the acceleration was acceptable.

If you want bigger tires and no fender trimming then you are looking at a 6" lift. There are 6" 'spring only' lifts available but the ride become harsher and articulation suffers a bit. This is because the springs have a lot of arch to them in order to provide the extra lift. If you look at your waggy you will see the springs are 'flat'. A lift kit will provide springs with an arch large enough to raise the jeep up.

Your friends suggestion of a 'front over axle' is a popular option. It is typically referred to as a 'Spring Over Axle' or 'SOA'. I clarify this for you so if you do searching on options you will get more 'hits'. If you look at the front suspension of your waggy you will see the front springs attach to the front axle on the bottom. What a SOA does is place the springs on top of the axle. It is good for 6 plus inches of lift. There is nothing inherently wrong with placing the springs on top of the axle, many other stock trucks came with this configuration. If you go this route there are some steering component changes that must me done. Searching SOA on this board will provide a lot of info on the changes required. 'Generally' an SOA conversion will provide a smoother ride and more articulation when compared to a 6" spring only lift because you can keep the springs relatively flat. My Cherokee has a SOA conversion and I like the ride very much.

Your friend also suggested blocks in the back. If you look at the rear axle you will see that, unlike the front axle, the springs already sit on top of the axle. It is 'easy' to add lift by simply placing a block in between the spring and the axle. A 2" block will add 2" of lift, 4" will add 4" of lift and so on. Adding blocks to the rear axle is one of the great debates in the off road community. Some people will say 'never do it' others will argue that it is fine. Everyone agrees that if you do it, get good quality blocks. The compromise that blocks cause is they will cause greater torque against the spring compared to no blocks. When you accelerate your tires apply force against the rear axle and try to rotate it. The springs counteract this force. The same happens when you brake, the axle is trying to rotate and the springs counteract the rotation. When you place a block in between the axle and the spring the amount of force on the spring is multiplied. The taller the block the greater the multiplication. This means the axle will rotate more during acceleration and braking and the spring will 'bend' more as a result. This extra force is stored in the spring and then released as it returns to its normal state. This can cause wheel 'hopping'. How much hopping? It depends on the size of the block and the stiffness of the springs. Wheel hop is bad, especially in braking, because it reduces overall control. All that being said, and there is much more on the subject available, a 6" block with your stock springs on the rear axle would not be recommended by most people and, in my case, I would discourage the use of blocks in your situation.

But all is not lost. Another option for gaining 6" or so of lift without adding new springs or blocks to the rear axle is called a 'shackle flip'. I've already written too much so I won't go into details but basically a shackle flip reorients how the springs are attached to the frame. It is the recommended solution for adding rear lift when doing an SOA in the front. If you search 'shackle flip' you will find lots of info on how to do this.

Have you seen other lifted rigs in person? What is your motivation for lifting your rig?

I am not talking you out of a BJ's lift but I would suggest you delay the decision and do a bit more research on the positives/negatives of lifting a rig and how the lift is done. Also, if you haven't seen lifted rigs in person try to hook up with some of the folks on the board and elsewhere. You might find you like the stance of a 4" lift with 31" tires over a 6" lift with 33" tires.

I hope this helped!
81 Waggy 'WILL E' Retired
82 Cherokee WT - SOA/SF/high steer/Alcan springs/agr box/Borgeson steering shaft/AMC 401/performer/holley TA/HEI/BeCool/727/ALTAS (2.0/2.72/5.44)/D60 Snofighter(Yukon Zip,hubs,stubs,4.56)/14 Bolt (FF,BF shave, Discs, ARB,Artec Truss)/MTR 37X12.5/Corbeau XRS Baja & 5 point retractable harness/Hella Aux lights/tuffy console/killer32 sliders/Evil Twin bumpers, rack and roll cage/WARN 8000/TT Fabworks steering brace/dual batts/custom TC skid plate/ARB fridge
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kjandb
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Re: Talk me out of a 4" lift kit from BJSoffroad

Post by kjandb »

Wow, what a wealth of information - thanks for taking the time to educate me!

My primary motivation for a lift is probably 80% aesthetics and 20% function. Turn it from a station wagon to a proper SUV (my wife's explorer is taller...haha). I spend a lot of time in the Idaho mountains and just wanted something a little taller - but in all honestly it will spend most of the time on the pavement. If the SOA adds 6" I'll probably rule that. I'm not married to the 33" tires and your 31" setup looks close to what I'm after. Especially if it introduces other driveability issues at that height. But you're right, if I could get my eyes on a few local rigs I might be able to form a better plan and opinion on what I want. I've only owned it for 2 weeks now so I'm probably jumping the gun. However, I can already tell it sure would be nice to have a few more inches underneath when I'm working on it :)

You have me curious on the gear ratio - is there an easy way I can check that?
'71 Wagoneer - 4" BJ's Leaf Lift - early 360 - Avocado Mist ???
S Idaho
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tgreese
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Re: Talk me out of a 4" lift kit from BJSoffroad

Post by tgreese »

Look on the axles for a tag. Typically they have a tag with a Dana part number, a Jeep PN (9xxxxx usually) and one or both of the ratio (ie 3.73) and a tooth count ("41 11" is 41/11 = 3.72727... ~ 3.73). Sometimes the tags are removed, and then your best option IMO is to remove the cover and look at the edge of the ring gear for the tooth count. Your TSM should also show the available ratios.

I would also consider that a '71 should have a Dana model 30 closed-knuckle front axle, and 11"x2" Bendix drum brakes. These were probably ok with OEM style tires, but maybe not with 33s. Most modern drivers find the drum brakes inadequate, even with the original sized tires. If I were modifying, that's what I would do first. A factory Wagoneer will take 5 or 6 people lots of places in relative comfort. These Jeeps are tough, and will go lots of places - look up "Moby Dick Wagoneer" https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/ ... 72.335303/ What do you expect from the larger tires? If you want a campmobile / dirt track cruiser that can occasionally tackle more challenging trails, I'm not sure that significantly larger tires will do much for you. You will also get worse fuel economy with the bigger tires, maybe quite a bit worse. JMO - you will be spending a lot for appearance.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
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tgreese
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Re: Talk me out of a 4" lift kit from BJSoffroad

Post by tgreese »

Suggest you look at "Dr. Marneus" old posts and follow his mods to a similar Wagoneer. Realize that a car this old provides plenty of opportunities for upgrades to newer technology and capability. Watershed years for the Wagoneer were 1965-6, 1974, and 1980. A Wagoneer that's a few years newer will already have many of the upgrades that you might imagine for your Jeep.

JMO - any Wagoneer older than 1974 should be owned and bought for what it is, not what you can make it into. AMC bought Jeep in 1970, and put their engines into Wagoneers starting in 1971; major updates waited till 1974. The '74-79 wagons have their issues too, and many would seek out an '80 or newer in light of that. The pricey examples that you see in advertising and such are all '80 and newer GWs with wood sides. There have been a few new arrivals here with '71-2-3 Wagoneers; discussions in their threads might be of interest.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.

SJTD
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Re: Talk me out of a 4" lift kit from BJSoffroad

Post by SJTD »

Flipping the rear shackle only gets you about the length of the shackle's worth of lift because it only lifts the truck at the rear of the spring. Need to lower the front of the spring too.
Sic friatur crustulum

'84 GW with Nissan SD33T, early Chev NV4500, 300, narrowed Ford reverse 44, narrowed Ford 60, SOA/reversed shackle in fornt, lowered mount/flipped shackle in rear.

will e
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Re: Talk me out of a 4" lift kit from BJSoffroad

Post by will e »

If it has the dana 30 front axle a swap to a dana 44 is probably a good idea if you are going larger tires.
The front and rear axles will need to have the same ratio.
I would put in a locker in the front while I was at it. Selectable locker if you can afford it.
Is your truck manual transmission? Do you know what transfer case you have?

For your stated purpose I think you would find a 4" spring lift to be an acceptable solution. With 31" tires and a front locker you will be able to tackle most Jeep trails that a stock Wrangler or off road pick up truck could do.
81 Waggy 'WILL E' Retired
82 Cherokee WT - SOA/SF/high steer/Alcan springs/agr box/Borgeson steering shaft/AMC 401/performer/holley TA/HEI/BeCool/727/ALTAS (2.0/2.72/5.44)/D60 Snofighter(Yukon Zip,hubs,stubs,4.56)/14 Bolt (FF,BF shave, Discs, ARB,Artec Truss)/MTR 37X12.5/Corbeau XRS Baja & 5 point retractable harness/Hella Aux lights/tuffy console/killer32 sliders/Evil Twin bumpers, rack and roll cage/WARN 8000/TT Fabworks steering brace/dual batts/custom TC skid plate/ARB fridge
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tgreese
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Re: Talk me out of a 4" lift kit from BJSoffroad

Post by tgreese »

A '71 Wagoneer will have a closed Dana 30 in the front. My phrasing was too passive. They all have Dana 20s. Manual transmissions are very unusual for these. I don't have a '71 book, but a '72 would have 3.31s standard and 3.73s optional. Except for any '71s that got the Buick (unusual AFAIK), a '71 and '72 are almost identical.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.
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kjandb
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Re: Talk me out of a 4" lift kit from BJSoffroad

Post by kjandb »

I looked for a tag and there doesn't appear to be one. I might need to raise it up and clean it to find something - but I assumed it was a 44 rear and 30 front - only based on the specs for that year. My buddy told me to be looking out for a 44 for sale so I've been watching. Shouldn't be too hard to find but in this Covid world who knows.

And to answer 'will e', yes it's an automatic transmission, turbo400, with the v8 360.

I'm leaning towards the 4" spring kit but sticking with 31's (max). I'm guessing there's a better chance I can keep the stock jeep wheels with 31's too (15). And I've thought about going to disc brakes but that might have to come later.

What about shocks and steering stabilizer from that BJ's kit? Is that something I should definitely change at the same time or wait to see how it drives?
'71 Wagoneer - 4" BJ's Leaf Lift - early 360 - Avocado Mist ???
S Idaho
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tgreese
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Re: Talk me out of a 4" lift kit from BJSoffroad

Post by tgreese »

Both ends will have a tag. It's like a strap between two bolts, typically two that are aligned vertically.

Usually a closed-knuckle axle dose not need a damper, unless it has some terrible geometry that causes bump steer or such. The knuckle seals plus the king pin preload provides some damping. Pretty sure Jeep delivered a damper starting with the open knuckle 44 in 1974. With a 44, unless I found it offensively ugly, I'd run the old one and see how it goes. You should not have a death wobble problem as long as the rest of the steering geometry is right.

Usually a Jeep with a lift kit runs a longer shock, for more travel. Be sure that full-compression distance between the pins is more than the fully compressed shock length. You may need to add spacers under the frame bumper.
Last edited by tgreese on Sat Nov 06, 2021 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.

will e
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Re: Talk me out of a 4" lift kit from BJSoffroad

Post by will e »

Tim, I meant if it wasn't already swapped out and if bigger tires is the plan. :)

IKjandb, I think you will be able to find a dana 44 front with disc's. No need to swap out the drums in the rear, that money is best spent elsewhere.

Since it's going to have a dana 20 transfer case you can go with a selectable or automatic locker in the front axle. When you are in 2wd with the front hubs unlocked it won't matter. The only real downside to an automatic locker in the front is the steering is a bit harder in 4wd, with a selectable locker you can turn the locking action on/off.

Are you going to be doing much driving in snow?

And by the way, that's a good looking rig you have!

I agree with Tim, find out how it drives without a damper.
Shocks are always a personal preference. With the spring lift you will need new shocks, the stock shocks will be too short.
81 Waggy 'WILL E' Retired
82 Cherokee WT - SOA/SF/high steer/Alcan springs/agr box/Borgeson steering shaft/AMC 401/performer/holley TA/HEI/BeCool/727/ALTAS (2.0/2.72/5.44)/D60 Snofighter(Yukon Zip,hubs,stubs,4.56)/14 Bolt (FF,BF shave, Discs, ARB,Artec Truss)/MTR 37X12.5/Corbeau XRS Baja & 5 point retractable harness/Hella Aux lights/tuffy console/killer32 sliders/Evil Twin bumpers, rack and roll cage/WARN 8000/TT Fabworks steering brace/dual batts/custom TC skid plate/ARB fridge

letank
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Re: Talk me out of a 4" lift kit from BJSoffroad

Post by letank »

Welcome to the asylum

Troublemaker here.... I'll talk you out of it.... But depending on what you are planning on doing, a 2" is plenty.... If rock climbing, yes 4" is probably better... but for the usual wagoneer challenge, 2" will work almost anywhere. I did Moab -the easy stuff- with a add a leaf... no lockers...

YES, selectable lockers are a nice touch when it gets out of control.

As a little note, you probably still have the OEM carburetor , the motorcraft 2100, check the driver's side embossing for some numbers, the early years were 1.08 venturi and latter 1.21

As for evolution, I busted the add a leaf and went with the BJ's 2" leaf for the front, the rear because of the design of the early years, I have 2" steel blocks, NOT aluminum.

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Michel
74 wag (349 Kmiles... parked, next step is a rust free body)
85 Gwag (229 Kmiles... the running test lab)
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kjandb
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Re: Talk me out of a 4" lift kit from BJSoffroad

Post by kjandb »

will e wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 3:48 pm
Are you going to be doing much driving in snow?

And by the way, that's a good looking rig you have!

I agree with Tim, find out how it drives without a damper.
Shocks are always a personal preference. With the spring lift you will need new shocks, the stock shocks will be too short.
Yes, hopefully it'll see lots of Idaho snow.

Thanks for all the great info everyone- I have a lot of homework to do. I re-read the post from 'will e' and keep thinking a SOA on front makes sense. I always liked the idea of SOA on the front (financially) but didn't think about the drivability benefits. I measured it and it looks like around 5" of lift on the front. I'm guessing I could add a 5" leaf on the back and probably save money??

Again, I'll dig through old posts and try to keep learning. Thanks!
'71 Wagoneer - 4" BJ's Leaf Lift - early 360 - Avocado Mist ???
S Idaho
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W300
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Re: Talk me out of a 4" lift kit from BJSoffroad

Post by W300 »

Following this post, as I picked up a 72 Wagoneer 2 months ago, and the springs are shot. I'm eyeing the 4" lift as well, but first need to get it back on the road before I decide what I'm going to do. Nice looking rig!
1972 Wagoneer
360, TH400, D20, Limited Slip
PTO Winch
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kjandb
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Re: Talk me out of a 4" lift kit from BJSoffroad

Post by kjandb »

Found a tag on the front - looks like 3.31 but does the other number confirm its a D30? No tag on the rear but from the pic I'm assuming it's a 44?

ImageImageImageImage

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'71 Wagoneer - 4" BJ's Leaf Lift - early 360 - Avocado Mist ???
S Idaho
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tgreese
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Re: Talk me out of a 4" lift kit from BJSoffroad

Post by tgreese »

You can look it up. The parts book is free to read and download here. https://oljeep.com/edge_parts_man.html

'62-73 J-Series. Group 9. The Jeep PN is 999410.

Yes, that's a 30 (but we knew that - it's a '71 with a 350 - no other possibility), and the rear is a 44 (same).
Tim Reese
Maine beekeeper's truck: '77 J10 LWB, 258/T15/D20/3.54 bone stock, low options (delete radio), PS/PDB, hubcaps.
Browless and proud: '82 J20 360/T18/NP208/3.73, Destination A/Ts, 7600 GVWR
Copper Polly: '75 CJ-6, 304/T15, PS, BFG KM2s, soft top
GTI without the badges: '95 VW Golf Sport 2000cc 2D
Dual Everything: '15 Chryco Jeep Cherokee KL Trailhawk, ECO Green
Blockchain the vote.
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