Turning a Waggy in to a Tow Rig

Area for General FSJ related chat.
User avatar

jpswapmohn
Posts: 656
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:08 pm
Location: CO

Re: Turning a Waggy in to a Tow Rig

Post by jpswapmohn »

Curious how this ultimately turned out..what the OP actually ended up doing and their results..


I was reading a bunch of old threads on stiffing frames and such when this one came up.
Since I have a 60 rear and 44 front with all discs, it would be nice to know what I might tow. We have a 26ft camper and a steel 1-car trailer that might have a built YJ or a CJ3 on it at times.
Never moved either with the SJ (heck, the SJ hasn't moved out our garage in 2 years..projects), but would like to be able to take it out on future adventures.

Not turning this into my thread, just curious if zonearc ever came back..
One day I will wake up and realize that my jeep is complete...one day, I just know it.
88Wag, LT1/4L60E/NP242, J20 axles, etc. http://imgbox.com/g/rNuIasKYrS
95YJ, STaK, D44's, SOA, ARB's, Bilstein 5150s, 35" KM2's
50 CJ3A
77 J-10 (sold)

Topic author
zonearc
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:35 pm

Re: Turning a Waggy in to a Tow Rig

Post by zonearc »

Yes. Worked. 90 Waggy, built 360, stage 2 trans, frame boxed in wirh 2 additional crossmembers, 4 wheel disc's, hydro brakes, etc. Tows 7500lbs with ease.

rocklaurence
Vendor
Posts: 2565
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:53 am

Re: Turning a Waggy in to a Tow Rig

Post by rocklaurence »

Well All Right :D Glad to here that its up and running.
User avatar

dodgerammit
Posts: 1434
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:20 pm
Location: Middle TN

Re: Turning a Waggy in to a Tow Rig

Post by dodgerammit »

The problem with beefing up an old rig to tow more than recommended is legal liability. Yes, you can do it. Yes, you can make it safer. But here's the rub.
NONE OF THIS MATTERS IF YOU ARE IN AN ACCIDENT. Even not your fault. Your GVWR from the factory is what the insurance companies and their lawyers will look at.

PERIOD

Have we all towed more than we should?

Yes.

But all it takes is that one time to financially ruin your life.

I'm still in the camp of having a dedicated tow rig if planning on regularly hauling a load more than GVWR tag states.

Yeah, Ford, Chevy, Dodge, not as cool, blah, blah, blah. :roll: Cool factor doesn't mean a damn in the courts.
Rock your cool Waggy, but tow with a safety margin.

Rant over. Carry on. I really hope you don't find yourself in an accident. No sarcasm implied.
84 Grand Waggy-Radio Flyer (Garnet Red/3M Ebony Metallic woodgrain, with honey interior) AMC 360 :cry: 2004 4.8LS/Advance Adapter/727/242 D44/AMC20 Serehill tailgate and headlight harnesses :fsj: Ongoing thread-viewtopic.php?t=11897

92 Wrangler Islander 4.0/32RH/231 D30/D35 RHD

rocklaurence
Vendor
Posts: 2565
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:53 am

Re: Turning a Waggy in to a Tow Rig

Post by rocklaurence »

Im not certain and not a Layer but here's my understanding. Trucks will have different Tow ratings dependent on just the Engine--the brakes and spring etc are all the same. Gladiator Jeeps are a good example where adding a heavier set of rear springs with a larger GVW axle and that bumps up the Tow Rating. Meaning that the OEM is more concerned about the reliability/warranty when adjusting the Tow Ratings on their vehicles. True, in some cases bigger brakes are added for better performance when towing but Mustangs and Corvettes have buch bigger brakes than even 1 ton Diesel trucks. IMO, you can easily modify your vehicle by adding heavier springs, brakes, swaybars, gears ect to ADD to the Tow Capacity. However, up to a limit. I towed a 1998 Dodge Power Wagon with a mostly stock short bed [Ugly Truck] J10 [with J20 axle] and IMO it was too light to be towing such a heavy load.
User avatar

dodgerammit
Posts: 1434
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:20 pm
Location: Middle TN

Re: Turning a Waggy in to a Tow Rig

Post by dodgerammit »

rocklaurence wrote: Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:07 am IMO, you can easily modify your vehicle by adding heavier springs, brakes, swaybars, gears ect to ADD to the Tow Capacity.
Not true.
That rating is set at manufacturer and CANNOT be changed.


https://www.hardworkingtrucks.com/truck ... -explained

Best summary is right at the start of the article:

No matter what hitch, suspension, brake, cooling, or engine upgrades you make to your pickup, its towing and load-carrying limits can’t change once it leaves the assembly line.
84 Grand Waggy-Radio Flyer (Garnet Red/3M Ebony Metallic woodgrain, with honey interior) AMC 360 :cry: 2004 4.8LS/Advance Adapter/727/242 D44/AMC20 Serehill tailgate and headlight harnesses :fsj: Ongoing thread-viewtopic.php?t=11897

92 Wrangler Islander 4.0/32RH/231 D30/D35 RHD
User avatar

hemsingd
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:08 pm

Re: Turning a Waggy in to a Tow Rig

Post by hemsingd »

zonearc,

I'm just curious if you would elaborate a little more on what you did to build the 360 that you're using as well as what is different about a 'stage 2' transmission. Also what you did about engine/trans cooling and what the performance of everything is like now.
Dad's
'65 Wagoneer Chevy 350 - learned to drive in it
'73 Wagoneer 258
Past
'83 Wagoneer 360, '69 Wagoneer Buick 350, '78 Wagoneer 360, '82 Wagoneer 360, '82 Wagoneer 360 (parts), '85 Wagoneer 360, '86 Wagoneer 360 - chop-top
Current
'66 Wagoneer 327, Motorcraft 2150
'78 Cherokee Chief 401 MSD AtomicEFI(sub-par engine management system)
'83 J20 360 + Camper QuadraJet
'79 Wagoneer 360, T18, 35's , 2" suspension 4" body, Trimmed fenders, '78 Bronco 33gal tank, twin stick D20, QuadraJet
User avatar

The PIG Smith
Posts: 506
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:54 pm
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana

Re: Turning a Waggy in to a Tow Rig

Post by The PIG Smith »

I have read the stories, seen the posted pics and heard the tales of woes from Wagoneer owns that have a broken rear axle.
The axle stub, hub, brake drum and wheel all come off the rig, leaving a three legged Jeep to hobble into the ditch.
A quick search here or on 'The Mothership' can verify what I saying is true.

I have towed a lot, embarrassingly many things I had no business towing.
I would not perform any serious towing for any distance on a rear axle that is not a Full Floating Axle.

Image

I know folks with J10, Ford F-150, Chevy 1500, Dodge 1500, Toyota Tundra, Nissan Titan, and all other 1/2 ton trucks...
...that tow all kinds of crazy loads with no issues.
If you want to call me a crazy fat old man, you will need to get a number and stand in line.
Last edited by The PIG Smith on Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:13 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Bryan Smith
Fort Wayne, Indiana
2017 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited
- 75th Anniversary Edition - 1941 Trim Package - Recon Green --Daily Driver
1986 Jeep J20
- Super clean rig from the AZ/CA state line -- Current Project
1982 Jeep J10
- Has become a Long Term Project.
1981 Jeep J20
- Commercial flat bed - Lost in a Divorce --gone
1987 Jeep J20 Pioneer
- Former Rick Bielec aka Ricbee plow rig. Major rust!! --gone

IFSJA Member #1933 Joined November 30, 2001

SJTD
Posts: 1924
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 12:02 pm
Location: Lompoc, Sunland or somewhere between

Re: Turning a Waggy in to a Tow Rig

Post by SJTD »

A note on the above picher. The full-floater illustrated seems to be a conversion of a semi-floating axle. I've never seen a factory ff that had a bolt on spindle.

This is not an argument for either, just a comment.
Sic friatur crustulum

'84 GW with Nissan SD33T, early Chev NV4500, 300, narrowed Ford reverse 44, narrowed Ford 60, SOA/reversed shackle in fornt, lowered mount/flipped shackle in rear.
User avatar

dodgerammit
Posts: 1434
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:20 pm
Location: Middle TN

Re: Turning a Waggy in to a Tow Rig

Post by dodgerammit »

The PIG Smith wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 11:00 am I have read the stories, seen the posted pics and heard the tales of woes from Wagoneer owns that have a broken rear axle.
The axle stub, hub, brake drum and wheel all come off the rig, leaving a three legged Jeep to hobble into the ditch.
A quick search here or on 'The Mothership' can verify what I saying is true.

I have towed a lot, embarrassingly many things I had no business towing.
I would not perform any serious towing for any distance on a rear axle that is not a Full Floating Axle.

Image

I know folks with J10, Ford F-150, Chevy 1500, Dodge 1500, Toyota Tundra, Nissan Titan, and all other 1/2 ton trucks...
...that tow all kinds of crazy loads with no issues.
If want to call me a crazy fat old man, you will need to get a number and stand in line.
Ooo! Can I get a number? :D

Cool necroposting!

But yes, I see so much bad advice given concerning tow ratings.

My Jeep is rated to tow 3500# according to the factory.
No way would I try it other than maybe to move something around the yard. Even with the LS in it now. It's just not safe with all the vehicles now that can out-accelerate, stop faster, and out maneuver my rig.

I'm planning a small camper build (squaredrop/teardrop) that will weigh in under 1500 and that's the limit of what I think is realistic by today's standards. Even then, the trailer WILL have braking ability to help keep the load under control on hills and mountains (and if someone passes, then cuts me off just to turn in 50 feet).

My Dodge (which I have definitely overloaded) was a ton truck with a full float 60 rear axle. It could handle it. Still didn't mean it was always legal.
84 Grand Waggy-Radio Flyer (Garnet Red/3M Ebony Metallic woodgrain, with honey interior) AMC 360 :cry: 2004 4.8LS/Advance Adapter/727/242 D44/AMC20 Serehill tailgate and headlight harnesses :fsj: Ongoing thread-viewtopic.php?t=11897

92 Wrangler Islander 4.0/32RH/231 D30/D35 RHD
User avatar

devildog80
Posts: 1069
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:41 pm
Location: Apache Junction AZ

Re: Turning a Waggy in to a Tow Rig

Post by devildog80 »

A lot of fiberglass campers out there that come in under 1500#, but I know a good one is hard to find for a reasonable price.

Sometimes you can find a shell of one for much less, then refurbish it the way you want it.

We will be pulling my dads 16' Scamp with our '84 GW, and camper does have brakes, but would not hesitate to pull it if it did not.

Now if we go up to anything longer or heavier, yes the brakes will be there and working :)
'81 CJ5 Base, 258 I6, MC2100, T176 4 spd, 300 TC, D30 Front NT, 3.31, 2-Piece AMC 20 rear NT, 3.31, 4" high arc spring lift
'84 Grand Wagoneer, 401 V8 (.030 over), MC2150 HA Comp, 727 auto, Selec-trac NP229, AMC 20 REAR - D44 FRONT - WT 3.31, 4" high arc spring lift
Rather be driving, than waiting to be modified
User avatar

dodgerammit
Posts: 1434
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:20 pm
Location: Middle TN

Re: Turning a Waggy in to a Tow Rig

Post by dodgerammit »

devildog80 wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 5:18 pm A lot of fiberglass campers out there that come in under 1500#, but I know a good one is hard to find for a reasonable price.

Sometimes you can find a shell of one for much less, then refurbish it the way you want it.

We will be pulling my dads 16' Scamp with our '84 GW, and camper does have brakes, but would not hesitate to pull it if it did not.

Now if we go up to anything longer or heavier, yes the brakes will be there and working :)
I really like the Scamps, Burros, and Casitas, but the lack of even a full size bed is a no-go for us. And yes, they command a premium if in decent shape.

As for weight, they usually weigh in about 1500 dry, so any extras will add up. Even Scamp owners will tell you the factory 1000-1200lbs number is false.
84 Grand Waggy-Radio Flyer (Garnet Red/3M Ebony Metallic woodgrain, with honey interior) AMC 360 :cry: 2004 4.8LS/Advance Adapter/727/242 D44/AMC20 Serehill tailgate and headlight harnesses :fsj: Ongoing thread-viewtopic.php?t=11897

92 Wrangler Islander 4.0/32RH/231 D30/D35 RHD
User avatar

devildog80
Posts: 1069
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:41 pm
Location: Apache Junction AZ

Re: Turning a Waggy in to a Tow Rig

Post by devildog80 »

You are right about the bed, and if I have one of these for my own, will redo the inside to make it more a sleeper space and not so much a living space.

The 16 ft is right in there @ 1500 tare wt, but maybe the 13 ft will come in more around 1200 tare wt?

Pound for pound, my '07 2wd Dakota w/3.7 V6 pulls the 16 ft almost like it is not back there.....until you hit the hills, then the struggle begins.

Hence why the GW is in the driveway now, and plans to get it on the road. Can't do any worse on fuel than that little 3.7 being over worked on those hills, and someday get a camper that has a nice bed in it, I am sure the GW will pull it just fine.
'81 CJ5 Base, 258 I6, MC2100, T176 4 spd, 300 TC, D30 Front NT, 3.31, 2-Piece AMC 20 rear NT, 3.31, 4" high arc spring lift
'84 Grand Wagoneer, 401 V8 (.030 over), MC2150 HA Comp, 727 auto, Selec-trac NP229, AMC 20 REAR - D44 FRONT - WT 3.31, 4" high arc spring lift
Rather be driving, than waiting to be modified
User avatar

DarkKn1ght
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:48 pm
Location: Boonton Township, New Jersey

Re: Turning a Waggy in to a Tow Rig

Post by DarkKn1ght »

zonearc wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:59 pm Yes. Worked. 90 Waggy, built 360, stage 2 trans, frame boxed in wirh 2 additional crossmembers, 4 wheel disc's, hydro brakes, etc. Tows 7500lbs with ease.
Do you have more details or pictures on the modifications to the frame?
1991 Jeep Grand Wagoneer

candymancan
Posts: 3652
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:32 pm

Re: Turning a Waggy in to a Tow Rig

Post by candymancan »

I towed a 6400lbs load with 350 lbs of stuff in the back. Two steel bumpers.. a brush guard.. th 400 and 1339 transfercase.

All with my 90 GW.. i have the factory v hitch the big one that i took from a 78 Cherokee Chief.. Factory tow package on my Jeep though.. That hitch is rated up to 7500lbs. The wagoneers are rated 5000lbs with a 750 tongue weight for the 360 and 7500lbs with a 750 tongue weight for the 401.

The only diff between the two is the engine. Thats it

I towed this Jeep j10 for 300 miles nearly.. and i engine didnt even get above 215f and thats going WOT up hills... The engine was a bit underpowered as i had to go wot up long hills in order to stay above 45mph.. or maintain 45 in a 70..

Brakes were fine too.. I didnt have issues stopping or anything. Nore did the trailer really toss my Jeep around either. Sure i could feel it.. but i could feel it empty too.

Drove home at an average speed of 60mph.

So honestly.. i would have no issue towing 5-7k lbs with my wagoneer since i did it and i realized it can do it. But my 90 is also heavier than most of yours at 5000lbs. And I also have add a leafs in the back which help from sagging with too much weight, the weight i had in the back and the trailer tongue weight. And no im not saying it increased my towing capacity but it does help with sagging too much..

Also fyi i weighed myself on a truck scale and total weight was 12,070lbs. So yea id do it again. Wasnt an issue at all and i did this in the mountains in virginia.

As for fuel mileage.. i get about 13 mpg unloaded.. and 11 going up hills in the mountains. This trip i refilled three times. 600 miles total.. and the 3rd refill i had 3.4 of a tank left when i got home.

I got an average of 8mpg. The 360 deff was struggling up hills though. One hill was especially very steep and i couldnt get speed to go up it. So i was doing wot at about 30mph starting the hill at aboit 45-50
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9L Limited 219k
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0 I6 laredo 430k
1990 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 155k
1976 Jeep J10.. 85k(repaired)

backroader
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:31 am

Re: Turning a Waggy in to a Tow Rig

Post by backroader »

I got an average of 8mpg. The 360 deff was struggling up hills though. One hill was especially very steep and i couldnt get speed to go up it. So i was doing wot at about 30mph starting the hill at aboit 45-50
That's what I used to get with my '86 K20 Suburban towing a 23' camper trailer. And sometimes all the way up to 12 mpg empty... :D

This thread got me to thinking about the '81 full size Bronco I had back in the '90's. That had a 300 I6 with a manual transmission... It was low geared, and didn't lack for power, but due to the short wheelbase, it would get very squirrely in the hills with a heavy load on the hitch. A load equalizer hitch would have made a big difference.

candymancan
Posts: 3652
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:32 pm

Re: Turning a Waggy in to a Tow Rig

Post by candymancan »

My question though is this..

Ok a wagoneer is rated 5000lbs with a 360 and 7500 with a 401 this is official i found on many official pages with year specific numbers. This is with a 1/8th ga steel c channle frame.

Why dies a Jeep j10 with the same gvwr have a 3/16th frame. With dana 44s you cant exceed a 6000lbs gvwr anyway.. as danan specifies 3000lbs max.. So why did Jeep bother making a J10 3/16th.

I get the J20 Having 3/16th with the dana 60 and 7-8k gvwr.. but a J10 ? Seems like a waste of steel and money.

I know off topic.. but im realizing after measuring pitting in my j10s frame and meausring .122 thickness from .187 original.. thats it rusted down to 1/8th in some spots just pits.. not like the entire thing.. only in the rear 2 feet.

Im realizing.. this is still very thick.. and as thick as a wagoneer or thicker so there is no need to (cut and weld) new metal.. it isnt really comprimised or not sound.. as this ttuck cant exceed its gvwr anyway..

So why bother ?
Last edited by candymancan on Sun May 07, 2023 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9L Limited 219k
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0 I6 laredo 430k
1990 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 155k
1976 Jeep J10.. 85k(repaired)

SJTD
Posts: 1924
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 12:02 pm
Location: Lompoc, Sunland or somewhere between

Re: Turning a Waggy in to a Tow Rig

Post by SJTD »

Isn't the truck frame different so if they made a thinner frame for the 10 than the 20 they'd have to make 2 truck frames?
Sic friatur crustulum

'84 GW with Nissan SD33T, early Chev NV4500, 300, narrowed Ford reverse 44, narrowed Ford 60, SOA/reversed shackle in fornt, lowered mount/flipped shackle in rear.

candymancan
Posts: 3652
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:32 pm

Re: Turning a Waggy in to a Tow Rig

Post by candymancan »

I guess youre right.. i didnt think of it that way.

It just seems like the J10 frame is hella overkill fir the dana 44s it has. Im not comolaining. The (badly rusted frame) i thought was gone in the last 2 feet of the frame.. turns out to be fine. When you measure the pits after i cleaned and hammered them free of rust.. when you measure it lost 30-40% of its thickness in those pits.. but its still 1/8th in thickness.

Only thr bottom lips of one side of course thinned out too much as stuff falls and goes down hill so it all sat on the lip.. That i did cut out.. decided to cut two inchs of the middle out as it was really pitted..

And even then.

Look how thick this is still... i guess i didnt need to cut it did i lol ?

Sorry off topic.. but i guess if this were 1/8th originally.. THEN the frame would be fubard.. but because its so damn thick it didnt effect it that much.


And i guess it wouldnt make sense to make two truck frames... just seems like a waste of materials.. because 1/8th and 3/16th ould nearly make a 2nd frame saving on costs.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9L Limited 219k
1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0 I6 laredo 430k
1990 Jeep Grand Wagoneer 155k
1976 Jeep J10.. 85k(repaired)
User avatar

Scotty54
Posts: 98
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2022 6:08 pm

Re: Turning a Waggy in to a Tow Rig

Post by Scotty54 »

I towed a drag car on a steel trailer, about 5k in weight. Towed the same load with a 89 GW and a 81 Brougham. The GW had a higher gear ratio, 3.23 maybe? and a 229 t-case. The 81 was a 3.54 with a 208 case. Both were 727 trannies (the real definition of "trannie") and both had a shift kit, most likely a B&M but I cannot recall. I used a Valley weight-distributing hitch and installed a trailer brake on both. Never had a problem with either one. But I would not have towed anything much heavier. When I traded the steel open trailer for an enclosed hauler, the weight increased to 6500 and I used my Tahoe. Also a short wheelbase but a higher tow rating.
1977 Cherokee Chief 401 QT
Northeast Tennessee
Post Reply