84 Grand Wagoneer Revival

[SJTD]

From here it looks like the it's the joint that's cracked. Also kinda looks like it's been resoldered maybe. I'm sure you know but the key to soldering this is clean, clean and more clean. Gotta get down in the joint and remove the goo the last guy made when he put the torch to it with coolant residue in the joint.

Also good ole real lead solder.

[devildog80]

Yep....agreed there is additional solder points here and around the front too. This crack is to the rear on engine side. I have cleaned it up just a little after the initial pic, and will clean and dry it completely before starting to solder it closed. Have the cap off it now to get rid of any excess moisture holding the anti freeze at the crack.
Thanks for the reminder

[tgreese]

What torch will you use? The radiator repair pros use an air-acetylene rig like plumbers use. This will provide a lot more heat right away, more than the typical hardware store propane torch. The propane or butane torch might be ok, but a radiator is very very conductive and a BIG heat sink. If you keep at it long enough with an inadequate torch you may start to melt adjacent joints.

Correction! AIR-acetylene.

I would try it with the propane torch, but I'd realize I'm going to give up if the joint does not melt right off. A MAPP-gas torch might be ok.

It also needs to be dry - water takes away a lot of heat in state conversion (when it boils, liquid to gas). Paste flux sold for plumbing should be ok.

[devildog80]

I have the hardware store MAPP gas, with availability to oxy-acetylene. This is right at the base of radiator cap neck, and no fluids are in contact to draw off the heat, with fluid level 2 inches down from the top. I also have plumbers flux and silver solder, then cleaning the area really well before attempting the repair.
Thanks for the tips.

[tgreese]

Oops, I meant air-acetylene. I expect oxy would work but that's well above the melting temperature of brass. Obvious caution applies.

I would drain it completely, and probably remove it from the car. Heat capacity of liquid water is high, even without phase change.

HeatCapacities (532 x 406).jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_heat_capacity

[SJTD]

Idunno about silver solder. Takes a lot more heat than lead solder and isn't required. The higher temp may oxidize the existing solder which won't help.

[devildog80]

I will double check what I have on hand, but used it previously for copper fittings work.

[tgreese]

Idunno about silver solder. Takes a lot more heat than lead solder and isn't required. The higher temp may oxidize the existing solder which won't help.

This is a good point. On old work, I would use plain 60/40 tin/lead solid core solder. Plus the silver solder will have a higher melting point than plain 60/40, in addition to being more expensive for little benefit. Maybe it's stronger, but I expect that's gilding the lily in this case.

If you have lead-free solder for plumbing, it could be a tin-silver-copper alloy. Not much silver, I think, not like "silver solder" used for jewelry typically, or where extra strength is needed.

The lead-free solder they sell in the big box stores for plumbing may be ok with old tin/lead solder. You can buy the tin/lead solder made for stained glass art, or buy a roll from Amazon. Oatey is a good brand https://www.amazon.com/Oatey-21018-Wire ... B004EVMX42

[devildog80]

On Amazon now

[devildog80]

I have Oatey 29024 Silver solder and Flux says 95/5 tin for joining copper tubing.
Will check with Mongo228 and see what he has, otherwise looks like I need to order Solder & Flux to do the job right?

[devildog80]

Mongo228 has 60/40 Solder and Forney brand Flux so should be good to go.

[SJTD]

Can't get it at a hardware store?

[devildog80]

I could, but he is 5 miles away, we help each other working on our rigs, and he offered.

Got radiator soldered up today, but finding I might not have an impeller left on the existing water pump, as installed new thermostat, filled up radiator and when thermostat opened.....still water. Could feel the heat going through the radiator, but no flow to see.
Ordered new pump, was to be drop shipped with some other items from BJ's, but pump not here yet.
Waiting on response from BJs to tell me where it is.

[devildog80]

So....BJs says another 1-2 weeks delay for high flow water pump. As my existing is not showing any flow at all, might cancel the high flow and just replace with an OEM pump, which should show flow. Mind you this is at idle with cap off and thermostat opened.
Interested to see how bad the existing one looks on the inside, so going to pop it off and see.

[devildog80]

Ordered an OEM pump from RockAuto, and about $100 less than the high flow through BJs.
Going to pull the old one and prep for simple OEM replacement, but still using the new high flow 180* thermostat, as that should be ok.

[devildog80]

Solder fix on the radiator worked beautifully. Not my best work I ever did, but did take care of that problem, and holds while engine percolating after shutdown.
BEFORE
Cracked neck by Scott Weckerly, on Flickr

AFTER
20230917_174814 by Scott Weckerly, on Flickr
20230917_174758 by Scott Weckerly, on Flickr
20230917_174834 by Scott Weckerly, on Flickr

[devildog80]

With most everything needing to be taken off the front of the 401 to change out the water pump, I decided to pull the York A/C compressor.
Went to FLAPS and found 2 belts to work w/o A/C, but need to helicoil the alternator pivot bolt hole, as threads are stripped and will not tighten up solid.
Needed the base A/C bracket to remount the alternator, but opens up a nice little burrito heating platform on the engine, for those hot meals when we get traveling with the rig
20230917_174239 by Scott Weckerly, on Flickr

[devildog80]

So upon pulling existing water pump off, found what the issue was, and not the pump directly, but part of the pump as designed and failed, reducing pump flow.
The disk shown below, used to be riveted onto the impeller, but broke free and was lodged in the pump housing as a non functioning part. Hence the reduction of flow, and engine temps not able to be managed properly. As new pump is the same as the old one.....minus the plate riveted to the impeller, the old pump is probably still a good standby pump if needed in a pinch. And the plate......just stocked a huge washer in nut/bolt inventory.
20230917_112846 by Scott Weckerly, on Flickr

New pump in place, with testing the thermostat opened right at 180*, and flow showing in the radiator as designed.
20230917_125910 by Scott Weckerly, on Flickr

[devildog80]

So all back together with new alternator belt set, bypassing the York A/C pump I pulled off, and works great.

Belt I borrowed from my CJ5 was too narrow and rode down in the alternator pulley so far it could not grip properly, and near burned up the alternator, with only a minute or so run time.

Had to helicoil the bolt hole on the block for the alternator swivel, and with that solid and tight makes a huge difference, in how solid the alternator is now vs before.
New belts are a generic industrial size, and just a tad wide @ 1/2", but the two together work well and no slipping.

Going to run errands this afternoon with just water still in radiator, and if it does good will drain tomorrow morning, then add back full strength anti freeze to mix with water from the block. Should come out about 50/50 when all mixed together, and should run cooler than road test will show with just water.

[devildog80]

Update

Need some assistance finding the "Easy Button" on my over temp engine issue.
Anybody been here/done that with this issue in a GW, or with a 401 engine directly? Just the nature of the beast? I would not think so, or these would not have been around very long.

Engine still insisting on running too warm, around 230* after just a couple miles, and not sure why....yet!
New 180* high flow thermostat and verified working correctly.
New OEM water pump and verified working.
All new hoses with no leaks.
Repaired leaky radiator so no leaks there.
Ran an internal cooling system treatment AND did an external coil cleaner, like you would do with your home A/C unit.
Antifreeze in the system - drained radiator and added 2 gis full strength to existing water, so might be a little strong but should still run cooler than it is.
Clutch fan working as it should and pulling good air. Kicks in full on when up to temp, and coasting when cooler at start up.
Auto transmission was treated and full flush of old fluid & chemical treatment, then refilled with all new trans fluid. This is attached through radiator with added trans cooler in the system. Transmission shifts and works perfectly.

So.....next step "I see" with diagnostics efforts, open up the cooling system again - drain/remove what needs removed to access the water jacket inside the block, and get a camera in there to see what is going on?
Or hook in a flow meter of some kind to find out what the flow is really doing, not just what I see flowing in the radiator with cap off and thermostat open? Is there such a thing, or only possible with the radiator pulled and in the shop?
Spend the $$'s and have radiator checked/repaired by local radiator rebuild shop, or replace? Currently between employment so this will need to wait, but with testing it might be the fix needed.....I don't know!