EV Conversions

Modified FSJ Tech Area

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sierrablue
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by sierrablue »

tgreese wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 7:21 am As I see it, EVs will go one of two ways. They will either become widely accepted as a replacement for ICEs, or they will again be out-competed by some new technology, like hydrogen fuel cells. Also, ICEs could outcomplete EVs in the future when combined with CCS and/or carbon sequestration.
The only way I see the ICE staying around is to be used as a generator to run electric motors. Too many losses in the drivetrain with a transmission, tcase, driveshafts, etc. vs. just running an electric motor, efficient 1-3 speed tiny transmission, and axle shafts.

Even if it does stick around, it's not the same thing people think about romantically. Additionally, very, VERY few people are going to continue to pay for fuel when we run out of petroleum, and have to start using synthetic fuel.

It's not sustainable and gas prices are reflecting that.

Also, the hydrogen fuel cell setup is an EV with a different source of energy than a battery, so they're still EVs. They're just "fuel cell" EVs instead of "Battery" EVs.
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-B350 (HEI, iron 4-barrel, Edelbrock 1406), TH400, D20
-'74 D44 front (nonpower discs)
-custom headliner
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viewtopic.php?t=23070

There are 2 major differences between new Wranglers and FSJs. FSJs are meant to be both utilitarian and capable, not just capable. FSJs are also rarely initially recognized as Jeeps by the average American.

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Re: EV Conversions

Post by sierrablue »

sierrablue wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 2:56 pm
Stuka wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 8:29 pm Solid state batteries are going to be a huge game changer once they start shipping in cars. Ambient temperature has way less impact on them, they don't burst into flames if punctured, they can be charged significantly faster, and they last longer.

The downside is currently, they are going to be more expensive. Though that may change with scale. And if the batteries last longer, and are easier to recycle, it becomes less of an issue.

What solid state batteries will do is make todays electric vehicles seem archaic. Internal combustion engine cars have been in production for 120+ years. We are currently in the model T stage for electric vehicles. At that stage for ICE cars, a horse and buggy was technically superior. A horse and buggy was more reliable, better range, WAY cheaper, and you didn't have to find a then rare fueling station. Many of the same downsides electric vehicles have now (minus the reliability bit).
A team in Europe came up with a solution to the "spontaneous flames", and temp changes, plus an additional 20% range out of the same batteries by simply changing the formulation of the gel/fluid in the Li-Ion batteries; companies can simply make a slight modification to the fluid and pump that into the existing batteries and fix most of the existing problems with Li-Ion.

I would argue that they're not at all at the Model T stage. It's similar as in people are awful at getting the infrastructure together, but SO many of the other poor aspects of the Model Ts aren't a problem. It's not anywhere near a fair comparison.

I think all of the technology is there; it's just too expensive for the general public at the moment.
Thinking about it more I can see the Model T argument; just in my mind the Model T was fighting so many more variables (no real roads, no safety equipment, breaking stuff, no parts/mechanics around, no phones/etc. on hand to call somebody, etc.). I can see what you're saying now; sorry I made a big thing out of it.
'71 Wagoneer (DD)
-B350 (HEI, iron 4-barrel, Edelbrock 1406), TH400, D20
-'74 D44 front (nonpower discs)
-custom headliner
-Front shoulder belts (rears eventually)

viewtopic.php?t=23070

There are 2 major differences between new Wranglers and FSJs. FSJs are meant to be both utilitarian and capable, not just capable. FSJs are also rarely initially recognized as Jeeps by the average American.
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by Stuka »

sierrablue wrote: Thu Apr 20, 2023 2:56 pm
Stuka wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 8:29 pm Solid state batteries are going to be a huge game changer once they start shipping in cars. Ambient temperature has way less impact on them, they don't burst into flames if punctured, they can be charged significantly faster, and they last longer.

The downside is currently, they are going to be more expensive. Though that may change with scale. And if the batteries last longer, and are easier to recycle, it becomes less of an issue.

What solid state batteries will do is make todays electric vehicles seem archaic. Internal combustion engine cars have been in production for 120+ years. We are currently in the model T stage for electric vehicles. At that stage for ICE cars, a horse and buggy was technically superior. A horse and buggy was more reliable, better range, WAY cheaper, and you didn't have to find a then rare fueling station. Many of the same downsides electric vehicles have now (minus the reliability bit).
A team in Europe came up with a solution to the "spontaneous flames", and temp changes, plus an additional 20% range out of the same batteries by simply changing the formulation of the gel/fluid in the Li-Ion batteries; companies can simply make a slight modification to the fluid and pump that into the existing batteries and fix most of the existing problems with Li-Ion.

I would argue that they're not at all at the Model T stage. It's similar as in people are awful at getting the infrastructure together, but SO many of the other poor aspects of the Model Ts aren't a problem. It's not anywhere near a fair comparison.

I think all of the technology is there; it's just too expensive for the general public at the moment.

I stand by that todays electric cars will be antiquated junk in 20 years time. Technology is going to move fast with all the automakers on board pushing it. Charge times will be way faster, battery weights per kWh will be down, capacity will be up. It will make todays cars seem antiquated.
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by vajeepj20 »

I came across a guys channel on Youtube where he electrified a 1995 Military Hummer. It's a really cool project and he's pretty thorough going over everything he does, very professional multiple videos. He goes over installing Electric Power Steering and all sorts of other things. It's not a Jeep, but there's a lot of good info. Once I started watching one video I found myself watching the next and the next. Like most EV conversions his isn't cheap. The Motor and Controller cost $23.5K, and 90KWH of Tesla Batteries is probably around $30K, so those three items are probably pushing $60K. If I'm correct, he started the project in 2021, he's had it running for a while but it's still not completely done.

JerryRigEverything is his channel. This link isn't to his first video of the project, but it gets into the meat and potatoes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp1uI4D7NRQ
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by Yeller »

"not affordable to the average general public" would put it before the model T. The T was built for everyone and the millions that were sold proved that point. EV is a long way from there. As for the infrastructure issues, its way, way beyond charging stations, that electricity doesn't just appear, it has to be produced. In this country they are outlawing the most efficient means of that production, and with dismantling of power plants, there is less dependable power available. With the current push to wind, it is not a sustainable model, Not to crawl down a political mess but wind farms do affect more climate change, more than the experts with an agenda will ever admit too. As for wind being green, what happens to the blades at the end of their service life? They are landfill fodder, not recyclable, not reusable. I don't want to start a debate, just food for thought.

I'm not bashing EV's I love the technology and the technological growth, just not convinced its sustainable for the masses, its not a one size fits all.
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by sierrablue »

Yeller wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 5:33 am "not affordable to the average general public" would put it before the model T. The T was built for everyone and the millions that were sold proved that point. EV is a long way from there. As for the infrastructure issues, its way, way beyond charging stations, that electricity doesn't just appear, it has to be produced. In this country they are outlawing the most efficient means of that production, and with dismantling of power plants, there is less dependable power available. With the current push to wind, it is not a sustainable model, Not to crawl down a political mess but wind farms do affect more climate change, more than the experts with an agenda will ever admit too. As for wind being green, what happens to the blades at the end of their service life? They are landfill fodder, not recyclable, not reusable. I don't want to start a debate, just food for thought.

I'm not bashing EV's I love the technology and the technological growth, just not convinced its sustainable for the masses, its not a one size fits all.
As far as the Model T thing goes, how are EVs before that stage? The Model 3 is right in the $60k price range, which is what most of the cars I see on the street are. I'm just saying the technology to make them 100% equal or better than ICE cars in 100% of situations isn't cheap yet.

I'm just curious, HOW is it possibly worse for the environment to produce a wind turbine than it is to build a new coal plant, mine the coal, and then burn the coal? The old plants are being shut down because the people in charge of them were too cheap to keep them up to spec, which is frankly half our problem.

Additionally as reliance on electricity steadily increases (without EVs), we're going to run into all of those problems either way. It can't be used exclusively against EVs, as our houses and everything else rely on that same system. It should be kept in mind but I don't see why that makes EVs inherently worse.

Also, if we put all of our pollution into one place (power companies), then that would make it A LOT easier for the government to step in and put standard regulations down for those companies, right? I mean they're never gonna stand a chance of regulating the pollution of every last car on the street to make sure it's legal, especially not on the federal level. But with the power companies, they have more control.

Additionally, that's part of the appeal of the hydrogen setup...
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-'74 D44 front (nonpower discs)
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There are 2 major differences between new Wranglers and FSJs. FSJs are meant to be both utilitarian and capable, not just capable. FSJs are also rarely initially recognized as Jeeps by the average American.
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by Yeller »

Keep in mind, today cars are a small percentage of the polluters, in North America. I don’t disagree that we have to do something, but everything is being driven by an agenda, usually where the money is, doesn’t necessarily make it the best option. Now that money is on both sides of the argument, my argument isn’t that what we have done historically is best, but challenging the thought of is what we are chasing the best solution.

As for wind turbines affect on climate, the air is warmer around them and they do make turbulence where their previously was not.

Again not debating just having healthy discussion of things to think about. Not saying either side of the debate is right or wrong.
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by SJTD »

I fink that picher demonstrates the the downwind side is cooler. The water condenses into fog.

Makes sense since the turbine is removing some energy from the air so it's cooler. In fact this brings to mind something I learned in Thermo. One of the steps in some air liquification plants is to run the hot high pressure gas they just pumped up through turbines to cool it and recapture some energy.

So not only do windmills make free power they help with global warming.
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by sierrablue »

SJTD wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:11 am I fink that picher demonstrates the the downwind side is cooler. The water condenses into fog.

Makes sense since the turbine is removing some energy from the air so it's cooler. In fact this brings to mind something I learned in Thermo. One of the steps in some air liquification plants is to run the hot high pressure gas they just pumped up through turbines to cool it and recapture some energy.

So not only do windmills make free power they help with global warming.
That's awesome! I mean I guess it makes some sense if you think about even just in your house, if you add a fan usually the air gets cooler...Can't wait to start real engineering classes next year.

I was a little confused on what the point of the picture was. I mean it looks like windmills, but is it fog? Is it to demonstrate the difference they make in turbulence? I'm just not 100% sure what it MEANS or is depicting.

Also all of the new charts and everything indicate that transportation is still the #1 polluter...
'71 Wagoneer (DD)
-B350 (HEI, iron 4-barrel, Edelbrock 1406), TH400, D20
-'74 D44 front (nonpower discs)
-custom headliner
-Front shoulder belts (rears eventually)

viewtopic.php?t=23070

There are 2 major differences between new Wranglers and FSJs. FSJs are meant to be both utilitarian and capable, not just capable. FSJs are also rarely initially recognized as Jeeps by the average American.

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Re: EV Conversions

Post by SJTD »

I think it was just a cool pic someone shot.

On the fan, the air isn't cooler it feels cooler to you due to the moving air removing heat from you faster than still air, aka forced convection. If there is perspiration, aka evaporative cooling, again it's increased by the air movement. The air is really a fuzz warmer due to the work, or energy, the fan put into it. Opposite of what's happening with the wind turbines.
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by sierrablue »

Ah. Thanks for the clarification
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-B350 (HEI, iron 4-barrel, Edelbrock 1406), TH400, D20
-'74 D44 front (nonpower discs)
-custom headliner
-Front shoulder belts (rears eventually)

viewtopic.php?t=23070

There are 2 major differences between new Wranglers and FSJs. FSJs are meant to be both utilitarian and capable, not just capable. FSJs are also rarely initially recognized as Jeeps by the average American.

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Re: EV Conversions

Post by sierrablue »

Here's an interesting video on automotive fires:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TCb32qLUo ... NpYyBjYXJz
'71 Wagoneer (DD)
-B350 (HEI, iron 4-barrel, Edelbrock 1406), TH400, D20
-'74 D44 front (nonpower discs)
-custom headliner
-Front shoulder belts (rears eventually)

viewtopic.php?t=23070

There are 2 major differences between new Wranglers and FSJs. FSJs are meant to be both utilitarian and capable, not just capable. FSJs are also rarely initially recognized as Jeeps by the average American.
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by wimsurf »

A friend is actually in the process of converting a landrover defender from diesel to EV.
40KWh battery, CCS2 fast charging and an electric motor to go mated to the transfer case to keep 4WD with just one motor.

you take out so much old iron that with the 40KWh battery you lose about 250 pounds. landrovers are simple with only a heater box, no power anything, so yu do not have to convert to electric pumps which makes things easy.
it's a good practice before tackling something like a well optioned grand wagoneer I think.
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by sierrablue »

Only 250? I'm surprised it's that low actually.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HoqoL1EyAHk
^these guys have some good stuff, and this covers their technical stuff

Imo the GWs have too much electric junk on them anyway. Things I'd be looking at keeping in an EV conversion include power steering and power brakes if you have those, radio, and maybe A/C, if that's critical for you. Oh, and cruise is nice. On a GW though, as far as I'm concerned, all the leather and power interior stuff can go.

Some prioritize fast charging over large range, however, I don't see doing that on mine, as while the lower weight would be nice, I personally need the peace of mind that if something goes horribly wrong, I can make it to town when it's -18°F with 20" of snow on the ground.
'71 Wagoneer (DD)
-B350 (HEI, iron 4-barrel, Edelbrock 1406), TH400, D20
-'74 D44 front (nonpower discs)
-custom headliner
-Front shoulder belts (rears eventually)

viewtopic.php?t=23070

There are 2 major differences between new Wranglers and FSJs. FSJs are meant to be both utilitarian and capable, not just capable. FSJs are also rarely initially recognized as Jeeps by the average American.
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by 67GMC »

This is a great part of the forum. Just visited today for first time. I think the EV conversions make more sense for the average person actually. Buying new cars and scrapping old gasoline cars seems very wasteful to me. If the government incentivised replacement engines, poorer people could keep their cars and I think there would be more economic advantages doing the work using mechanics we already have instead of buying new cars from overseas sources using resources, equipment and labour from another country. It would also be great to keep the older cars on the road. Imagine an electric Woody Wagoneer driving down the road as opposed to the new one (even if electric from new). Just my thoughts.
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by Srdayflyer »

have a friend of mine contacted by his insurance agent, regarding his tesla and his home owners insurance policies, his car insurance was going to be 4600.00 a year due to a couple of things cost of repairs and fire losses, due to fire losses albeit small a total loss always occured, and he has to park and charge his tesla outside because they wont issue a new homeowners policy or pay any claim due to vehicle fire caused damage, just what my friend told me.

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Re: EV Conversions

Post by sierrablue »

67GMC wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 4:09 am This is a great part of the forum. Just visited today for first time. I think the EV conversions make more sense for the average person actually. Buying new cars and scrapping old gasoline cars seems very wasteful to me. If the government incentivised replacement engines, poorer people could keep their cars and I think there would be more economic advantages doing the work using mechanics we already have instead of buying new cars from overseas sources using resources, equipment and labour from another country. It would also be great to keep the older cars on the road. Imagine an electric Woody Wagoneer driving down the road as opposed to the new one (even if electric from new). Just my thoughts.
Thanks!

That's actually what I want to do for a career--convert existing vehicles to electric drivetrains. Between the cost and the environmental impact (hey, I love being outside and hate the wildfire smoke--and I want any kids I have to be able to enjoy nature too), and just in general I lean more towards older cars than newer ones, that's just what I landed on.

Between importing them and the fact that there's SOOOO much plastic in new cars, the environmental and health impacts of new cars aren't really improving. In my mind, we can't take back what we already built, but we can go back and make it stop CONTINUING to be a problem. And hey lower maintenance, and the arguments of hard starting and stuff against older cars could be eliminated.
'71 Wagoneer (DD)
-B350 (HEI, iron 4-barrel, Edelbrock 1406), TH400, D20
-'74 D44 front (nonpower discs)
-custom headliner
-Front shoulder belts (rears eventually)

viewtopic.php?t=23070

There are 2 major differences between new Wranglers and FSJs. FSJs are meant to be both utilitarian and capable, not just capable. FSJs are also rarely initially recognized as Jeeps by the average American.

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Re: EV Conversions

Post by sierrablue »

Srdayflyer wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:27 pm have a friend of mine contacted by his insurance agent, regarding his tesla and his home owners insurance policies, his car insurance was going to be 4600.00 a year due to a couple of things cost of repairs and fire losses, due to fire losses albeit small a total loss always occured, and he has to park and charge his tesla outside because they wont issue a new homeowners policy or pay any claim due to vehicle fire caused damage, just what my friend told me.
Yeah the fires suck. But a couple things about that--not saying this against you or anything, just it's a common point and is fairly valid argument.

1. They're coming out with some new solution to put in the Li-ion batteries to prevent the fires, and it actually also improves their capabilities in extreme temperatures and improves range by ~20%.

2. If you look at the numbers there are still fewer (as a percentage) numbers of EV fires than combustion car fires--which makes sense when you think about it. Phones and computers with Li-ion batteries aren't really known for being fire hazards, although it happens. Also, with combustion, the goal is literally to blow up the fluid to produce power, so if you have any leaks or problems, it stands to reason that it's going to be a fire hazard.

I'm curious about what maintenance is needed/is so expensive. I mean it's Tesla so much like BMW or Mercedes you're paying a premium but still, I'm curious.
'71 Wagoneer (DD)
-B350 (HEI, iron 4-barrel, Edelbrock 1406), TH400, D20
-'74 D44 front (nonpower discs)
-custom headliner
-Front shoulder belts (rears eventually)

viewtopic.php?t=23070

There are 2 major differences between new Wranglers and FSJs. FSJs are meant to be both utilitarian and capable, not just capable. FSJs are also rarely initially recognized as Jeeps by the average American.
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by Yeller »

have any repairs made on your BMW or Merc, its crazy expensive. Most of those repairs on not to the engine......

I love the technology, but until we have a better solution than current battery technology, our govt needs to stop shoving it down our throat like it's the second coming. That is unless we are willing to allow those elements to be mined here. Which at the moment they are not. Until they build something that I can drive for 800 mile jaunts with 10 minute fuels stops every 400 miles, be more comfortable than my living room recliner, and tow my 15,000# trailer I'm out. Tech has a long way to go.
The bus I ride is so short it is a yellow Smart Car full of squirrels, monkeys and clowns.

1970 J2500 Resto Mod
https://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/viewt ... 12&t=21395

1974 Bronco “Broncno”
https://classicbroncos.com/forums/threa ... st-3411909

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Re: EV Conversions

Post by SJTD »

Not to mention an adequate power infrastructure.
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'84 GW with Nissan SD33T, early Chev NV4500, 300, narrowed Ford reverse 44, narrowed Ford 60, SOA/reversed shackle in fornt, lowered mount/flipped shackle in rear.
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