EV Conversions

Modified FSJ Tech Area

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sierrablue
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EV Conversions

Post by sierrablue »

https://www.hagerty.com/media/news/the- ... 022-09-16/

Ok, not a fan of all of the other stuff they're doing to the FSJs, but I like the EV conversion aspect.

I think the way I will do an EV conversion on mine when I get the chance, is to pull everything in the drivetrain in front of the Dana 20, as well as the fuel tank and exhaust. Then, take two AC electric motors bolted together (~200 lb-ft of torque and ~120 hp each)(doesn't sound like much but remember it being electric, that power is INSTANT), mated to a 3-or 4-speed (probably column shift with the reverse gear removed), up to the D20. That should all fit in the trans tunnel (and if not it won't go too far into the engine bay; no clutch or anything needed) I think. The motors I like are water cooled, so I was thinking I'd use that for the heater (also supposedly seat heaters are the best way to heat an EV...not my favorite option in the world but I guess it wouldn't be too hard to incorporate into the bench seats). The heater door controls would be cable or electronic, as I'm not going to run a vacuum pump to suck power just for those.

My brakes are nonpower anyway (and I like them that way; AWESOME control), and my thought there was to have regen braking--put a sensor in where the booster would go, and have it apply extra regen (vs. just lifting off the accelerator)(almost said gas there), and if you feed it a lot of brake (esp. fast), kicking in the hydraulics. I don't have it all worked out yet in my head, but that's my thought.

I can't find anything for electric power steering (well, there's rack and pinion) other than running an electric pump. The nice thing there is that you can have it shut off above a certain speed when you don't need the boost anymore. I'm going to put a Ford steering box on (for a number of reasons) here pretty soon, and it will be a good setup.

Otherwise, I have LEDs and a modern radio (Retrosound) already, and the electric cooling fan will also be removed. I figure batteries go on either side around the drivetrain (in place of the size of the TH400, gas tank, and exhaust, and some in the engine bay too, but only low), and then maybe take the spare tire out from under the back and put batteries under there (and relocate the spare tire to under the hood, where it will be outside/out of the way, but also a bit cleaner than it is now).

What do you guys think of this? I mean it IS still my Jeep, but I'm just looking for some feedback. And I realize going EV doesn't solve everything for the planet, but if you pretend that I don't care about the planet, I would still do it because

1. it's low maintenance
2. it's quiet
3. it's less explosive and there aren't chemicals EVERYWHERE
4. if nothing else, if I'm alive when we run out of oil, I can still run it on synthetic oils w/o spending a crazy amount of money

Thoughts/insight would be appreciated.
'71 Wagoneer (DD)
-B350 (HEI, iron 4-barrel, Edelbrock 1406), TH400, D20
-'74 D44 front (nonpower discs)
-custom headliner
-Front shoulder belts (rears eventually)

viewtopic.php?t=23070

There are 2 major differences between new Wranglers and FSJs. FSJs are meant to be both utilitarian and capable, not just capable. FSJs are also rarely initially recognized as Jeeps by the average American.

SJTD
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by SJTD »

Can you have regen braking with AC motors?

Did you do a list of cons?

I wonder if EV's are safer splosionwise. They get the publicity when they go up but I wonder how they really stack up. Severity of colision vs severity of fire, etc.
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'84 GW with Nissan SD33T, early Chev NV4500, 300, narrowed Ford reverse 44, narrowed Ford 60, SOA/reversed shackle in fornt, lowered mount/flipped shackle in rear.
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Yeller
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by Yeller »

Electric power steering is easy, use a manual box and a power unit from a Prius or from flaming river steering.

https://www.therangerstation.com/tech/t ... onversion/
The bus I ride is so short it is a yellow Smart Car full of squirrels, monkeys and clowns.

1970 J2500 Resto Mod
https://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/viewt ... 12&t=21395

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Topic author
sierrablue
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by sierrablue »

SJTD wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:16 pm Can you have regen braking with AC motors?

Did you do a list of cons?

I wonder if EV's are safer splosionwise. They get the publicity when they go up but I wonder how they really stack up. Severity of colision vs severity of fire, etc.
Yep, regen works wit the AC motors...actually diesels (trains) are moving towards AC vs. DC because of the improved efficiency at more than just one set RPM, and also because you can't really over-rev them.

I did a list of cons, and ultimately electric came out on top. I like the quiet and simplicity, plus the reduction in CO2 emissions.

The fires are all electrical issues just like any other new car has--if you look into it, any new car has the all of the same risks as an EV (possibly minus a few high-voltage wires the EVs but those tend to be better sealed/protected for obvious reasons). The batteries tend to burn for longer IF they get broken AND catch on fire. The gasoline has more of a tendency to explode (that being the entire point of blowing it up to propel the car forward).
'71 Wagoneer (DD)
-B350 (HEI, iron 4-barrel, Edelbrock 1406), TH400, D20
-'74 D44 front (nonpower discs)
-custom headliner
-Front shoulder belts (rears eventually)

viewtopic.php?t=23070

There are 2 major differences between new Wranglers and FSJs. FSJs are meant to be both utilitarian and capable, not just capable. FSJs are also rarely initially recognized as Jeeps by the average American.

Topic author
sierrablue
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by sierrablue »

Yeller wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:23 pm Electric power steering is easy, use a manual box and a power unit from a Prius or from flaming river steering.

https://www.therangerstation.com/tech/t ... onversion/
THANK YOU!!!! I found reference to that previously but could not for the life of me find anything on it again. Plus it would be kind of cool to break out the old non-power boxes for these things ;)
'71 Wagoneer (DD)
-B350 (HEI, iron 4-barrel, Edelbrock 1406), TH400, D20
-'74 D44 front (nonpower discs)
-custom headliner
-Front shoulder belts (rears eventually)

viewtopic.php?t=23070

There are 2 major differences between new Wranglers and FSJs. FSJs are meant to be both utilitarian and capable, not just capable. FSJs are also rarely initially recognized as Jeeps by the average American.
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Yeller
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by Yeller »

sierrablue wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:42 pm
Yeller wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:23 pm Electric power steering is easy, use a manual box and a power unit from a Prius or from flaming river steering.

https://www.therangerstation.com/tech/t ... onversion/
THANK YOU!!!! I found reference to that previously but could not for the life of me find anything on it again. Plus it would be kind of cool to break out the old non-power boxes for these things ;)
Your welcome!

You can use a power box for better ratios, you just have bleed out about 1/4 of the fluid in the box and connect the ports with a hose. The old manual boxes are great but the ratios suck. That power unit with a nice 3 turn box would be the bomb.
The bus I ride is so short it is a yellow Smart Car full of squirrels, monkeys and clowns.

1970 J2500 Resto Mod
https://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/viewt ... 12&t=21395

1974 Bronco “Broncno”
https://classicbroncos.com/forums/threa ... st-3411909

SJohn
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by SJohn »

What purpose does the 3/4 speed transmission serve in the EV driveline. Instant torque from the electric motors negate the need for a lower gear and can provide the power/RPM for highway speeds but I could see a 2 speed or overdrive unit for trying to squeeze out some efficiency. In my mind it seems like adding a traditional transmission in an ev driveline is mostly excess weight. I know Porsche has developed a 2 speed gearbox for improving top speed and efficiency at those high speeds. Other than that, sounds great. I would love to do an EV conversion as well but battery energy density and prices aren't where I'd like them to be yet.

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Topic author
sierrablue
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by sierrablue »

SJohn wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:14 pm What purpose does the 3/4 speed transmission serve in the EV driveline. Instant torque from the electric motors negate the need for a lower gear and can provide the power/RPM for highway speeds but I could see a 2 speed or overdrive unit for trying to squeeze out some efficiency. In my mind it seems like adding a traditional transmission in an ev driveline is mostly excess weight. I know Porsche has developed a 2 speed gearbox for improving top speed and efficiency at those high speeds. Other than that, sounds great. I would love to do an EV conversion as well but battery energy density and prices aren't where I'd like them to be yet.

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It's because unlike a gasoline engine, an electric motor uses less power at higher RPMs (I read somewhere that most AC motors have a sweetspot around 8-12k RPMs), so the older underdrive transmissions allow you to get it in that sweet spot for most speeds. They don't make much power in those RPM bands but they don't use much either.

This reminds me: I was also thinking 4.56 or 5.12 gears and maybe a Terra-low kit in the D20.
'71 Wagoneer (DD)
-B350 (HEI, iron 4-barrel, Edelbrock 1406), TH400, D20
-'74 D44 front (nonpower discs)
-custom headliner
-Front shoulder belts (rears eventually)

viewtopic.php?t=23070

There are 2 major differences between new Wranglers and FSJs. FSJs are meant to be both utilitarian and capable, not just capable. FSJs are also rarely initially recognized as Jeeps by the average American.

Topic author
sierrablue
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by sierrablue »

Yeller wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:58 pm
sierrablue wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:42 pm
Yeller wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:23 pm Electric power steering is easy, use a manual box and a power unit from a Prius or from flaming river steering.

https://www.therangerstation.com/tech/t ... onversion/
THANK YOU!!!! I found reference to that previously but could not for the life of me find anything on it again. Plus it would be kind of cool to break out the old non-power boxes for these things ;)
Your welcome!

You can use a power box for better ratios, you just have bleed out about 1/4 of the fluid in the box and connect the ports with a hose. The old manual boxes are great but the ratios suck. That power unit with a nice 3 turn box would be the bomb.
So I should still plan on putting the Ford box on is what I'm hearing :mrgreen: (the pitman arm goes opposite to how it goes on the Saginaw boxes, so I can move it back on the frame and run however long of a pitman arm I want, to get more steering out of it...and with the later front axle there are lots of clearance issues with the stock steering box). That's good 'cause I already have one :-bd
'71 Wagoneer (DD)
-B350 (HEI, iron 4-barrel, Edelbrock 1406), TH400, D20
-'74 D44 front (nonpower discs)
-custom headliner
-Front shoulder belts (rears eventually)

viewtopic.php?t=23070

There are 2 major differences between new Wranglers and FSJs. FSJs are meant to be both utilitarian and capable, not just capable. FSJs are also rarely initially recognized as Jeeps by the average American.
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Yeller
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by Yeller »

Just curious, how much steering are you trying to get? My J truck is a 70, I have upgraded to thew newer open knuckle front axle. I used the correct pitman arm for the newer truck, it is a bolt on, and get as much steering as my axle shafts and ujoints will allow without binding. The limiting factor in steering angle is not the steering box, pitman arm or knuckles, but the clearance within the axle shafts. That being said I have modified Dana 60 front axles to accept 50 degrees of steering successfully, and even larger 1550 ujoint equipped axles to 60 degrees. I do not believe there is enough meat in a D44 axle to get that same amount of angle. Dana 44's are typically limited to 38* +/-. The newer axles like in the JL and new Glad's have a larger ujoint, allowing for more angle. I've done a lot chasing steering angle in competition rock crawling.
The bus I ride is so short it is a yellow Smart Car full of squirrels, monkeys and clowns.

1970 J2500 Resto Mod
https://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/viewt ... 12&t=21395

1974 Bronco “Broncno”
https://classicbroncos.com/forums/threa ... st-3411909

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sierrablue
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by sierrablue »

Yeller wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:28 am Just curious, how much steering are you trying to get? My J truck is a 70, I have upgraded to thew newer open knuckle front axle. I used the correct pitman arm for the newer truck, it is a bolt on, and get as much steering as my axle shafts and ujoints will allow without binding. The limiting factor in steering angle is not the steering box, pitman arm or knuckles, but the clearance within the axle shafts. That being said I have modified Dana 60 front axles to accept 50 degrees of steering successfully, and even larger 1550 ujoint equipped axles to 60 degrees. I do not believe there is enough meat in a D44 axle to get that same amount of angle. Dana 44's are typically limited to 38* +/-. The newer axles like in the JL and new Glad's have a larger ujoint, allowing for more angle. I've done a lot chasing steering angle in competition rock crawling.
I'm not sure on the angle exactly, but it has noticeably less steering even than my dad's truck ('74 F100, D44 front), which is made up for in a shorter wheelbase, but still irritating. When I went to adjust the stops on the axles (a PO had bigger tires on it at one point so I thought maybe they weren't adjusted right), I put it on where the wheel stopped and there was still 1" between the stop and the axle--the box was out of travel.

Also when I had to build my own bracket, I didn't do a great job (lower steering shaft lightly hits the motor mount), and getting it in JUST the right spot was a total pain--the factory stuff hit the tie rod if you were pointed straight ahead and hit a bump. When I was making mine, I should've kept track of the number of times I went "What in the world made Jeep think it was a good idea to use a Saginaw box for this?" when I was building that bracket. (Yes, I realize that they changed it for the '74+ because they changed the springs)(which, I mean, you may be doing it wrong if you have to change your SPRINGS to make the steering clear...)

I like to make nice tight turns like Jeeps are known for :roll: Probably doesn't help any that the family DD is a '95 ZJ and backup is an '84 XJ...but still if I can get it to turn as sharp as the truck I'll be happy.
'71 Wagoneer (DD)
-B350 (HEI, iron 4-barrel, Edelbrock 1406), TH400, D20
-'74 D44 front (nonpower discs)
-custom headliner
-Front shoulder belts (rears eventually)

viewtopic.php?t=23070

There are 2 major differences between new Wranglers and FSJs. FSJs are meant to be both utilitarian and capable, not just capable. FSJs are also rarely initially recognized as Jeeps by the average American.

Topic author
sierrablue
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by sierrablue »

I suspect your truck had more clearance in at least one dimension, depending on what all went into doing the swap...could be wrong though.
'71 Wagoneer (DD)
-B350 (HEI, iron 4-barrel, Edelbrock 1406), TH400, D20
-'74 D44 front (nonpower discs)
-custom headliner
-Front shoulder belts (rears eventually)

viewtopic.php?t=23070

There are 2 major differences between new Wranglers and FSJs. FSJs are meant to be both utilitarian and capable, not just capable. FSJs are also rarely initially recognized as Jeeps by the average American.
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Yeller
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by Yeller »

I don’t have leafs either…… linked and coiled it. You’re right about everything being close. I’m curious about your pitman arm, drag link, and tie rod. The tie rod should have a jog in it to clear the pitman arm/drag link when straight.

I have a theory about vehicle builds. Anyone can throw stuff together that rubs, clangs and bangs. But when everything is close to everything and nothing rubs or hits inappropriately it is perfection. That perfection takes patience, creativity and skill.
The bus I ride is so short it is a yellow Smart Car full of squirrels, monkeys and clowns.

1970 J2500 Resto Mod
https://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/viewt ... 12&t=21395

1974 Bronco “Broncno”
https://classicbroncos.com/forums/threa ... st-3411909

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Re: EV Conversions

Post by sierrablue »

That's a good theory...if you have the budget for it :D

My tie rod doesn't have a jog in it; I'm sure that's the issue...maybe if I get a new one (with a jog) I can buy a used (later, cast iron instead of stamped steel) steering box bracket and put a ZJ steering box on it--quick steer, sharper radius, better feel...

Then I can sell the Ford box (nothing against Ford, but if I can make what I have work...)
'71 Wagoneer (DD)
-B350 (HEI, iron 4-barrel, Edelbrock 1406), TH400, D20
-'74 D44 front (nonpower discs)
-custom headliner
-Front shoulder belts (rears eventually)

viewtopic.php?t=23070

There are 2 major differences between new Wranglers and FSJs. FSJs are meant to be both utilitarian and capable, not just capable. FSJs are also rarely initially recognized as Jeeps by the average American.
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Stuka
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by Stuka »

TFL (youtube channel) partnered with a company that does after market swaps. Not that you need to do a Tesla swap like this, and having a shop do it like they did here was pricy. You can probably do it yourself for less than half the cost.

The truck had a very worn out for i6, that was needing to be rebuilt/replaced anyway.

They did the swap in a similar manner to what you are suggesting. The motor is connected to the transfer case, so it retains the 4wd and everything.
A coworker of mine actually did an EV conversion to a Honda S2000. He actually kept the 6sp manual trans, as the motor he used (to save costs) didn't have the RPM range to forego the transmission. So he drove and shifted it as if it was a gas engine.

Personally, I think its great for something you drive to work every day, or cruise on the weekends. The reliability factor alone makes an EV conversion very interesting.
2017 JKU Rubicon
Pevious Jeeps: 1981 J10, 1975 Cherokee, 2008 JK, 2005 KJ, 1989 XJ

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sierrablue
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by sierrablue »

Stuka wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 4:50 pm TFL (youtube channel) partnered with a company that does after market swaps. Not that you need to do a Tesla swap like this, and having a shop do it like they did here was pricy. You can probably do it yourself for less than half the cost.

The truck had a very worn out for i6, that was needing to be rebuilt/replaced anyway.

They did the swap in a similar manner to what you are suggesting. The motor is connected to the transfer case, so it retains the 4wd and everything.
A coworker of mine actually did an EV conversion to a Honda S2000. He actually kept the 6sp manual trans, as the motor he used (to save costs) didn't have the RPM range to forego the transmission. So he drove and shifted it as if it was a gas engine.

Personally, I think its great for something you drive to work every day, or cruise on the weekends. The reliability factor alone makes an EV conversion very interesting.
Thank you Stuka!

And also, since I haven't really seen it said, thank you for keeping this site up and running, up to date, AND participating in the discussions.
'71 Wagoneer (DD)
-B350 (HEI, iron 4-barrel, Edelbrock 1406), TH400, D20
-'74 D44 front (nonpower discs)
-custom headliner
-Front shoulder belts (rears eventually)

viewtopic.php?t=23070

There are 2 major differences between new Wranglers and FSJs. FSJs are meant to be both utilitarian and capable, not just capable. FSJs are also rarely initially recognized as Jeeps by the average American.
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Yeller
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by Yeller »

[quote

Thank you Stuka!

And also, since I haven't really seen it said, thank you for keeping this site up and running, up to date, AND participating in the discussions.
[/quote]

Couldn’t agree more, we don’t say it enough!

Thank you Stuka!
The bus I ride is so short it is a yellow Smart Car full of squirrels, monkeys and clowns.

1970 J2500 Resto Mod
https://www.fsjnetwork.com/forum/viewt ... 12&t=21395

1974 Bronco “Broncno”
https://classicbroncos.com/forums/threa ... st-3411909

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Re: EV Conversions

Post by sierrablue »

Yeller--I thought of the other reason I want to do the Ford box. The way I want to do tow hooks on the front (just behind the front cross member, to avoid bending the frame when they get used)(notice I said WHEN and not if :D), it will be MUCH easier and cleaner to put them in the way I want to if I get the Saginaw box out of the way. It's hard to explain w/o actually having someone under the Jeep with me (which is hard w/o a 2-post lift).
'71 Wagoneer (DD)
-B350 (HEI, iron 4-barrel, Edelbrock 1406), TH400, D20
-'74 D44 front (nonpower discs)
-custom headliner
-Front shoulder belts (rears eventually)

viewtopic.php?t=23070

There are 2 major differences between new Wranglers and FSJs. FSJs are meant to be both utilitarian and capable, not just capable. FSJs are also rarely initially recognized as Jeeps by the average American.
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Stuka
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by Stuka »

sierrablue wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:02 pm Thank you Stuka!

And also, since I haven't really seen it said, thank you for keeping this site up and running, up to date, AND participating in the discussions.
Yeller wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:23 pm
Couldn’t agree more, we don’t say it enough!

Thank you Stuka!
A functioning forum is the sum of its parts. I just provide the medium. All the members here make it hum :)
2017 JKU Rubicon
Pevious Jeeps: 1981 J10, 1975 Cherokee, 2008 JK, 2005 KJ, 1989 XJ

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sierrablue
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Re: EV Conversions

Post by sierrablue »

Stuka wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:30 pm
sierrablue wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:02 pm Thank you Stuka!

And also, since I haven't really seen it said, thank you for keeping this site up and running, up to date, AND participating in the discussions.
Yeller wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:23 pm
Couldn’t agree more, we don’t say it enough!

Thank you Stuka!
A functioning forum is the sum of its parts. I just provide the medium. All the members here make it hum :)
Maybe, but you also put out the anti-offensive rules and such (those over on IFSJA may have seen my issues w/advertising beliefs that have absolutely nothing to do with Jeeps). You make the rules clear and participate in discussion, gaining even more respect (well mine anyway).

And thanks everyone else for complying and sticking to Jeep stuff :-bd
'71 Wagoneer (DD)
-B350 (HEI, iron 4-barrel, Edelbrock 1406), TH400, D20
-'74 D44 front (nonpower discs)
-custom headliner
-Front shoulder belts (rears eventually)

viewtopic.php?t=23070

There are 2 major differences between new Wranglers and FSJs. FSJs are meant to be both utilitarian and capable, not just capable. FSJs are also rarely initially recognized as Jeeps by the average American.
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