1991 Grand Wagoneer just bought, need some directions

[rj0530]

Hello everyone, Rob here, first post..I just bought a 91 grand wagoneer with 109k. Firstly, according to the fellow I got it from, it all works as it should mechanically, (has a fuel delivery issue now, hopefully fuel pump but will run with gas poured in). I don't have the warm and fuzzy at all as the fellow told me there was only 1 small spot of rust when there are 5 I can see, so..yea. I'm torn as to what level to take the resto. Get it running and drive, fixing irritants but otherwise, just roll or right down to a frame off and in between..not sure yet but the rust bothers me and makes me want to tear it slam down. Will preface this with I'm a pretty handy guy, built stuff and all but no real skills when it comes to mechanical or body. I've always wanted to and think I can learn. So, any advice as to whats doable and whats better left to those that can would be appreciated.

I do have a couple questions, what is the best way to handle the fuel tank skid plate? Mine is pretty much toast. I've found an aftermarket for about $500 on a site folks say takes forever to ship and watched a video of a fellow who built himself one. Any thoughts on what the consensus best way to do this would be much appreciated. any info on where to look for parts would be appreciated. Ive seen BJ's and TGW looking through threads, let me know if there is other places I should be looking.

Finally, I've always wanted to build a truck. This one has a very nice interior and at $4500 entry price, its a good platform to start from..any thoughts at all on where a rookie newb goes from here and I'd be in your debt. Thanks and looking forward to the process.

[Srdayflyer]

ive spent almost 4 years restoring my daughters cherokee, several questions, does your parking brake work? if not the drivers sid p. brake cable runs along the drivers side frame rail along with the fuel supply and return lines i would look for or ask some one who is parting one out and get a good used one, also there are 2 fuel vent check valves that are on the top of the fuel tank and have rubber grommets that are probably bad, if you have a fuel leak when topping off the tank this is probably the problem also i doubt the fuel sender has been pulled out there is a fuel filter finger strainer that is probably shot and should be replaced, the fuel pump could be the issue easy to replace 2 bolts and the fuel lines, remove the fuel supply line to the carb stick in a catch container and crank it over if you are getting fuel there pump is probably good, and the fuel float and needle could be stuck closed not letting fuel in the carb , get yourself a good factory service manual it will be your bible to working on your FSJ, have questions send me a message ive gone thru my FSJ top to bottom

[Srdayflyer]

used skid plate i was referring to parting out from someone

[tgreese]

The gas tank skid plate is a problem for all wagons '80-on. Debris gets between the plastic tank and the frame and rots both the skid plate and the frame. Be sure to check that the frame is solid in that area. Vehicles from the rust belt are worse off in this regard.

In 1980, Jeep went to the plastic fuel tank which was supported by the skid plate. The tank was then strapped down to the skid plate. We recently had a thread covering this viewtopic.php?t=23623 where I suggested that the poster find someone locally to make one for them. Other responses pointed to previous posts where the owner suspended the plastic tank somehow and eliminated the skid plate.

MTS makes a tank for a '79 that they suggest can replace the factory tank in these '80-on wagons. http://www.mtscompany.com/J-truck.htm A recent conversation with MTS revealed they expect purchasers to eliminate the skid plate and suspend the '79ish tank with straps they supply. To me, this suggests that the MTS tank is strong enough to be suspended by straps, but possibly the factory plastic tank is not.

If you want to try and find a replacement, realize there are more GWs out there in need of this part than there are donor wrecks with a good one. If you are in the South or West, you could try car-part.com and look for a donor. You could also try posting in the WTB section here or at IFSJA, or look through the parts cars being dismantled in parts for sale.

Note that you can put a gas can on the cowl and run the engine by siphon pressure alone. BTDT. This will let you run the car for longer than a few seconds. These cars often suffer from very low hot idle oil pressure, so getting it up to operating temperature will tell you something about the engine. With a bad fuel pump (and pouring gas in the carburetor), suggest you pull the dipstick and check for oil dilution; check smell and level. Change the oil first if you find evidence of gasoline in the oil.

The '89 TSM is free to read and download here https://oljeep.com/edge_parts_man.html - the '91 book would be better but not free. See BJ's. https://bjsoffroad.com/1991-jeep-factor ... ce-manual/

First post - welcome from Boston!

[will e]

Greetings from Phoenix. What are your plans? Are you doing to daily drive it? Fix it up and admire it? Weekend it? Flip it? Take it off road? That will help me answer your questions on rust and restorations.

[rj0530]

so, apparently I cant reply individually nor to private messages yet, may need some more activity on here.
Your thoughts and suggestions are very helpful to me and I am very greatful for you taking the time. I dont have any warm and fuzzy about finding a used fuel skid plate in good shape. I did find one to purchase at about $550 shipped. I may could build one for about $150 but again, it woud be a stretch...skill wise, but I might could do something, more likely to purchase new on that.
I'd really like to do a frame off, rebuild driveline, paint it the same military like gray color my sons new ford is and just clean the inside, fix all the little stuff kinda thing and drive it daily...maybe a 2 or 3" lift, nothing crazy. that would be my wish..definitely gonna try my hand at fixing the body rust in the quarters. (are there replacement quarters out there somewhere if I can't). Still haven't had much chance to wrench on it but will take a look at the suggestions once I get the fuel pump back in it. I do have the chiltons on it and it will be my bible with this site being the good reverands to show me the way. Thanks yall and looking forward to the process.

[Yeller]

BJ's Off Road has some quarter panels available. There are not many sheet metal panels available for these old trucks. Good luck with your plans
https://bjsoffroad.com/

[will e]

I've never been good at body work but I know folks that have learned it.
I take it the skid plate is so you can drive it around a bit before the frame off.

If your going to do a frame off then make a parts list of new and used parts you want to get. Have some cash on hand and when the used part shows up, jump on it. A frame off will take at least a year or so, depending on how much time you can devote. So you'll have time to pick up parts while it's non-operatable. But try to make sure you have the 'must haves' lines up before you start tearing it apart.

Take lots of pictures and VIDEO as you take it apart. I find video a bit more helpful. Bag and mark every part and bolt, you'll forget where they go. Organization is the key.

[rj0530]

The gas tank skid plate is a problem for all wagons '80-on. Debris gets between the plastic tank and the frame and rots both the skid plate and the frame. Be sure to check that the frame is solid in that area. Vehicles from the rust belt are worse off in this regard.

In 1980, Jeep went to the plastic fuel tank which was supported by the skid plate. The tank was then strapped down to the skid plate. We recently had a thread covering this viewtopic.php?t=23623 where I suggested that the poster find someone locally to make one for them. Other responses pointed to previous posts where the owner suspended the plastic tank somehow and eliminated the skid plate.

MTS makes a tank for a '79 that they suggest can replace the factory tank in these '80-on wagons. http://www.mtscompany.com/J-truck.htm A recent conversation with MTS revealed they expect purchasers to eliminate the skid plate and suspend the '79ish tank with straps they supply. To me, this suggests that the MTS tank is strong enough to be suspended by straps, but possibly the factory plastic tank is not.

If you want to try and find a replacement, realize there are more GWs out there in need of this part than there are donor wrecks with a good one. If you are in the South or West, you could try car-part.com and look for a donor. You could also try posting in the WTB section here or at IFSJA, or look through the parts cars being dismantled in parts for sale.

Note that you can put a gas can on the cowl and run the engine by siphon pressure alone. BTDT. This will let you run the car for longer than a few seconds. These cars often suffer from very low hot idle oil pressure, so getting it up to operating temperature will tell you something about the engine. With a bad fuel pump (and pouring gas in the carburetor), suggest you pull the dipstick and check for oil dilution; check smell and level. Change the oil first if you find evidence of gasoline in the oil.

The '89 TSM is free to read and download here https://oljeep.com/edge_parts_man.html - the '91 book would be better but not free. See BJ's. https://bjsoffroad.com/1991-jeep-factor ... ce-manual/

First post - welcome from Boston!

I pulled the dipstick and did find the oil smelled like gas..would you mind telling me exactly what that means?

[will e]

There are a couple of things that can cause the oil to smell like gas. The first, and most simple, is the fuel pump diaphragm is leaking into the crank case. The second is the engine is running REALLY rich or the fuel bowl is flooding and too much gas is getting into the intake. My mustang did this when the needle/seat gaskets had deteriorated.

[tgreese]

Yeah, oil smells like gas means there's gas in the oil. In a bad case, you'll pull the dipstick and it will be over-filled. The higher level is the gas mixed with the oil. If it's not over-level, likely you have some but not a lot of gas in the oil.

The fuel pump is driven by the camshaft within the crankcase. In some cases, the fuel pump can fail and leak fuel into the crankcase. A new, properly-functioning fuel pump will not leak into the crankcase, but an old, failed pump could.

In any case, if you have not changed the oil on an old car that has not run for a while, you should. Oil is cheap, engines are not. If the fuel pump has failed, disconnect it and plug the hoses. Don't give it the opportunity to flood the crankcase with gas. Gas can come from the carburetor, or possibly from the fuel pump. As I mentioned above, you can run the engine by siphon pressure from a gas can. Anyway, stop pouring gas into the carburetor to start the engine.

If you need to start the engine using added fuel, I'd suggest a can of starter fluid (ether) which will not dilute the engine oil (Walmart or your local parts store). Should not take a lot. Again, the engine should run from siphon pressure.

[rj0530]

well....at this point, I'm thinking an LS swap. I've read quite a few threads where the cost are similar to swap the drivetrain vs rebuilding existing, which doesn't offer much in the way of ability nor reliablity nor fuel mileage. My truck has 109k on it, so not changing a low mileage, prestine example by any stretch. I'm off to look more into this topic but kinda feeling this is the way I want to go with it. Let me know your thoughts and all suggestions are welcome. any links to others who have done such or debates as to why I shouldnt would also be welcome. Thanks again.

[tgreese]

... the cost are similar to swap the drivetrain vs rebuilding existing, which doesn't offer much in the way of ability nor reliablity nor fuel mileage. ...

Seems highly unlikely. Realize that owners with this swap are invested in what they've done and biased in favor of their choices. Suspect it would take a long time to make back the time and expense invested in a swap, even with somewhat better gas mileage. Mileage for the engine and transmission in your chassis won't be comparable to the donor. Likely better, but aerodynamics and the chassis rolling resistance of the antiquated GW will prevent most of the potential gain.

There is a thread of LS Chevrolet swaps - viewtopic.php?t=9446 Suggest you talk to owners offline and get some feedback.

JMO -suggest you get it running and drive it. See if you like it. The engine runs, and 109K is not worn out if the oil was changed regularly. The 360 is a good engine; has its weak points but so does every other drivetrain. The 727 is well known for durability and longevity. Not efficient, but rugged. Measure the engine compression and oil pressure before you condemn it. Fixing what you have will put you on the road years sooner than going for a complete swap, and I predict will be significantly less expensive.

[letank]

Welcome from the left coast, $4500 is a good deal... even with a rusty skid plate as long as the frame is not to rusty.

As for the fuel pump, ditch the mechanical and put an electric fuel pump, many choices, from easy to fancier set ups.

Yes, indicate your location

[devildog80]

So it sounds like your engine is sound, and just had a mechanical fuel pump diaphragm failure.
I would suggest to change the oil, cap off the fuel lines through the mechanical pump, and install an electric pump in it place for fuel supply.....then drive it to work out any other issues until you get ready to do the LS swap.
What are plans for the existing engine?
Do you have a CJ project to use it in, or perhaps just donating to a worthy cause for another FSJ revival?

[rj0530]

... the cost are similar to swap the drivetrain vs rebuilding existing, which doesn't offer much in the way of ability nor reliablity nor fuel mileage. ...

Seems highly unlikely. Realize that owners with this swap are invested in what they've done and biased in favor of their choices. Suspect it would take a long time to make back the time and expense invested in a swap, even with somewhat better gas mileage. Mileage for the engine and transmission in your chassis won't be comparable to the donor. Likely better, but aerodynamics and the chassis rolling resistance of the antiquated GW will prevent most of the potential gain.

There is a thread of LS Chevrolet swaps - viewtopic.php?t=9446 Suggest you talk to owners offline and get some feedback.

JMO -suggest you get it running and drive it. See if you like it. The engine runs, and 109K is not worn out if the oil was changed regularly. The 360 is a good engine; has its weak points but so does every other drivetrain. The 727 is well known for durability and longevity. Not efficient, but rugged. Measure the engine compression and oil pressure before you condemn it. Fixing what you have will put you on the road years sooner than going for a complete swap, and I predict will be significantly less expensive.

I really appreciate the striaight forward advice. Your probably right. Think I need to get the gas tank off, cleaned and start from there, replacing whats needed and moving to electronic fuel pump. Will move forward in the direction suggested..thanks again.

[Yeller]

As suggested having brought many an old vehicle back to life and use as a daily driver, I always get them going and find what it asks for. It will tell you by breaking down or feeling like a whipping. I’ve done some that became frame offs and I’ve done others that I just tinkered with and drove. My philosophy is that if I can’t drive it, it gets fixed or changed and if it’s a long term, being more than a couple of months, it gets sold. But I can be sadistic, did what was supposed to be a 2 year complete custom build in 4 months. My hat is off to anyone that can spend years on a build and not be ready to light it on fire lol.

[will e]

There is no way an LS swap is about the same cost as rebuilding what you have. If it even really needs it. A compression test will help you determine if your current engine is 'healthy'.

From your original post: "I'm a pretty handy guy, built stuff and all but no real skills when it comes to mechanical".

The difference between pulling an engine and replacing it with the same engine is 10 time easier than doing a swap to something totally different, and 30 times easier if you don't have much experience. If you try to LS swap it yourself you will end up with a project truck that has boxes piled on top of it. And if you pay someone to do it the $4500 entrance fee you are into the jeep now will seem like a drop in the bucket. Not to mention any LS swap is going to come with 'gremlins' that will need to be worked out.

A short list of modifications for an LS swap: Motor mounts, exhaust system, electrical, cooling, power steering, charging system, linkage for transmission and transfer case. Drive shafts, master brake cyl and booster, heating system. Cooling, air induction, fuel delivery (high pressure fuel pump, probably tank mounted). There is a lot of fabrication work involved. Depending on what you decide to do for transmission and TC you might need adapters or electronic controls. Even crap like speed-o-meter gears, oil pressure and water temp gauges will need to be worked out. Transmission cooling, radiator hoses, even the AC will need to be modified to work. I am probably missing a bunch of stuff.

That assumes you found a good doner truck. That you pulled all of the necessary stuff of of it, including the wiring harnesses.

I don't mean to be a downer. I've thought of doing an LS type swap and I know the effort involved is great. And I have pulled several engines in my lifetime.

Pulling an engine is a pretty big task but if you have patience and can keep track of stuff as you go it is not insurmountable. And most any AMC 360 or 401 will work. You might watch for a deal on a rebuilt engine, that's what I did. Just make sure to swap in your oil pan.

[rj0530]

Thanks Yeller and Will e. I don't consider either of your advice a "downer". I again appreciate your experience and straight forwardness. I will move forward with getting it running and go from there. I do know the frame is in good shape (have to get under the fuel skid plate to look at all that, the interior is pretty nice so I think I got a good donor. Fella I bought from and his best old buddy kept insisting the same advice you folks are...its a good trk. my doubt has come from how less than forthright he was about everything else. Oh well. I will have a bit of downtime as I had some Eurolgy type surgery yesterday with a bit more to come..promise ya that wasnt somthin to relish. Thanks again for all your help in this. PS..anybody around the tampa bay area with suggestions on mechanical/body folks you recommend would be greatly appreciated as well.

[tgreese]

You realize that the "donor" is the Chevrolet truck or car that the LS engine and transmission came from? Your Jeep is not the donor, it's the recipient of whatever was donated.

Have you ever owned a really old car? Or one that's been in storage for a long time? Do you want help with that?

If I were looking for help, I'd try the local Jeep or 4x4 clubs first. Usually they have a forum, or a Facebook page today. That would be a good place to get referrals if you need help with repairs. This place has people from everywhere, and will help you a lot with info specific to your GW. However, you're more likely to find local resources for repairs and such on Facebook or similar.

First hit from a search: https://www.facebook.com/groups/TBAJA/

https://www.bing.com/search?q=tampa+bay ... 4+facebook