Lift problems

[mineral co]

As noted elsewhere, I'm just wrapping up the installation of a BDS four-inch spring lift on my '84 GW.

This has not been without its problems!

Once all the equipment problems with the BDS kit (what a PITA!) get sorted out I'll post more about that.

However, I did finally get to take the truck out for it's first drive yesterday. The first obvious problem was a wicked vibration and the second problem was some really scary steering. The truck is not at all safe to drive like this. I couldn't get above 25 mph as it was just too scary.

My very pleasant, but stock, Wagoneer is no more! So I went back home in a not-good frame of mind and conceded into a long nap on the couch.

I decided a vibration that bad almost has to be u-joints even though there was zero vibration before the lift. The angle through the first u-joint is now pronounced where as before it was nearly flat. So I ordered new Spicer items (Napa no longer stocks Spicers !!?!) and pulled the driveshaft. There was some definite notchyness (is that a real word?) when swinging the front joint by hand. While still in the process of removing the rear u-joint from the driveshaft, it was clear that there was a problem. It was even worse at the front u-joint.

I thought I would post a photo of the worst area:

IMG_0493_mid.jpg

Even the back side is showing marks:

IMG_0494_mid.jpg

Anybody that's been using a lifted vehicle for any period of time is familiar with the issues with u-joints that are forced through too great an angle during rotation, but the problems associated with not a great enough angle rarely come up. I imagine that when the truck was newer and sat higher that there was enough angle at the front u-joint to not be a problem, but as Wag Sag gets worse, the angle at the front u-joint gets smaller and smaller to the point where there is nearly zero rotation of the joint's bearings, and the inevitable result is what is seen in the above photos.

I like finding real and actual problems. I suspect that replacing these u-joints will fix the vibration problem. Now, if only the dang delivery guy would get here with the new ones!

Regarding the steering, I'm less certain of what the problem is going to be, but there are only so many possibilities. I have never found any play anywhere in the system, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. I did check the drag link joint at the Pitman arm when I replaced the stock Pitman arm with the dropped unit and, while there was no play, there was definite notchyness (there's that word again) and excessive stiffness. I also replaced the steering damper as the original one had zero damping abilities left in it.

I suspect that the drag link ends have a problem similar to the u-joints in the driveshaft in that there are grooves worn in certain spots that coincide with the angle of the joints at the stock height. Now, of course, the drag link is at a steeper angle (even with the dropped Pitman arm, which only regains about half of the four inch lift). and those notches are creating a problem as the steering is operated. So I ordered completely new drag link and tie rod parts, but I won't have those for a few days yet. I'll have to wait and see on this one for a while.

I thought I would post these two issues associated with doing a lift as I hadn't seen them mentioned elsewhere. If your vehicle wasn't lifted previously and you don't know for sure what condition all these other parts are, it would probably be wise to make that part of the project.

Chris

[Stuka]

For the u-joint, it was bad before your lift. It just didn't run at any sort of angle, so you did not get any vibes. Once you put it at an angle from the lift, the roller bearing then had to roll through those worn in valleys, causing all the vibrations. Its actually very normal for people to learn they have bad u-joints after a lift. Replace them and you will be fine.

For the steering, are you saying turning the tires feels notchy? Try removing the steering dampener, and see if it still does it. There isnt really much in the steering to cause what you are describing. Either its the stabilizer has an issue, your box has an issue (unlikely if it was fine before), or your pump is failing (kind of unlikely if it was fine before also).

Bad TRE's and such cause loose, flighty steering. But not notchiness.

[mineral co]

Yeah, the u-joint was definitely bad before the lift. It just didn't show any symptoms until after the lift.

I don't feel anything notchy through the steering wheel, it was when I moved the tre by hand when it was disconnected from the Pitman arm that I could feel it.

When driving the truck the steering feels very vague and inconsistant, and also feels like there is lots of play somewhere. So far, I have not found anything that would account for the feel of lots of play. Because of the way the tre felt in my hand I know it is bad even if it (them) aren't contributing to the problem. If one is bad, might as well replace all of them.

I don't know how the original tres where built, but I suspect that the inner ball cup is spring loaded so that the joint is always under compression to compensate for eventual wear. In theory, this type of joint could eventually allow the ball to move inside the cup under load but still feel tight when moving it by hand. I won't have the new drag link and tie rod for a few days yet so I've got time to experiment a little on a few things before removing them.

The delivery guy did show up this evening so I've got the new u-joints now. Those will go in in the morning.

[Stuka]

Ahh ok. Bad TRE's could explain what you feel. It only takes a tiny bit of play down there to translate to a lot of play in the wheel.

Its possible you have bad ball joints too. When you have it jacked up, grab the top and bottom of the tire and try wiggling it. If there is any play, its either ball joint or wheel bearing.

[mineral co]

I've pushed and shaken the front hubs as hard as I can, fully expecting to feel some play in the ball joints and/or bearings. But, as with the tres, I don't feel any movement. Once I get the tie rod and drag link disconnected I'll be able to swing the hubs from side to side and see how that feels.

When I first started all this, I checked for play in everything so that any problems could be addressed before the lift. The truck has 167K miles on it, and it's just not reasonable to think that all the wearing parts wouldn't show some play after that much use. There were also a lot of popping and crackling noises in the front end when turning the steering wheel before the lift, but it seemed there was a good chance that those noises were coming from the rear bushings in the front springs and, indeed, most (but not all) of that is gone with the new springs and bushings. Considering the notchy operation of the tres, some of that remaining noise could be coming from them, but I still think ball joints are a more likely cause even if they aren't showing any play.

It had crossed my mind that the ball joints may have been replaced before I got the truck. This is based partly in that there is no discernable play in them and the front rotors are perfectly flat with not even a minor groove in them. Those rotors had to have been replaced shortly before I got the truck, so maybe other parts in the front end were as well.

Regardless, if replacing the drag link and tie rod doesn't fix the problem, then it will be time to take a hard look at the ball joints and bearings. It has also crossed my mind that the rag joint in the steering shaft should be considered too. It's been wet with power steering fluid for several years and would probably benefit from replacement.

It raining today. Maybe it will lighten up later and I can get the driveshaft back in the truck and see how much improvement that makes on that problem.

[mineral co]

I suspect that replacing these u-joints will fix the vibration problem.

Wrong!

Replacing the u-joints certainly helped, but did not eliminate the problem.

I know the rubber trans mount is trash, but with no symptoms and a strong desire to replace the leaky trans pan with something that has a drain plug and possibly holds more fluid, I wasn't going to replace it until I found a decent pan to install at the same time.

You can see the rubber from the mount oozing out the back in this photo:

IMG_0496_mid.jpg

It also looks like the two bolts up into the trans are out a couple of turns.

Based on what I've read it seems that replacing all those rubber parts with poly is the thing to do. Does anybody have a recommendation on a deeper trans pan that has a drain plug and is steel rather than aluminum?

Thanks!

Chris

[AwesomeJ10]

Sounds like you lifted your truck, now all the worn parts are rearing their head.

I'd say this is normal for the builds that I've done.

[mineral co]

Yeah, I'm not complaining about these extra problems except that I'm feeling pressed for time. In normal years the end of October is the end of doing anything outside, and it's already the end of September. I know that doing any more good off-road trips is unlikely, at this point I'm concerned about just having the truck reliable for the winter (we got our first snow today! )

[haminawag]

Hi Mineral co, it's been my experience that the MoPar Performance extended depth 727 tranny pan kit is a fine bargain. I personally don't care for cast aluminum down there, but that's just me. The MP pan kit is steel, with an extra 1 to 1.5 quart capacity, comes with gasket, drain plug, filter, filter extension & longer screws. Last one I bought was $45.00 a few years ago. That trans mount has got to go, hah. The more that tailshaft can wiggle the more vibes you'll get, be a shame to trash a new set of spicers, eh?

[will e]

People say you don't have to lengthen the drive shaft with a 4" lift. And typically it will stretch out enough to 'work'. But it is most likely the limiting factor. This is hard on the u-joints and the TC.

My two cents. Worth about half that.

[mineral co]

Okay, I think I found that Mopar pan. Amazon appears to have the best price on it.

http://www.amazon.com/Genuine-Mopar-P36 ... PDKIKX0DER

I've also seen the Derale pan which I would buy in a second if I thought it would actually clear the cross-member. I don't care about the cooling tubes, but it sure would be nice to have all that extra capacity in a steel pan!

I was laying under the truck last night looking at the current pan arrangement, hoping to see that all the leaking is actually from the pan. Even just sitting, the trans loses about a quart of ATF in just over a week. However, on the driver's side, it looks like fluid may (also) be leaking from around one of the control levers. This photo is zoomed in a bit too close, but it does show both levers, and it is the bottom one that looks wet (the other just looks "damp"). Is there a seal that can be replaced here?

IMG_0499_mid.jpg

Will E, are you saying that, in your opinion, the driveshaft should be lengthened? For the foreseeable future the Wag will be my only transportation, and I'm a big fan of reliability. I know most folks don't bother on a four-inch lift but if there is something I can do that will measurably increase reliability, I'm up for it. What're the chances that a Cardan joint like the front driveshaft has could be incorporated in the rear driveshaft?

Chris

[haminawag]

Chris, if you want to increase your tranny fluid capacity you can buy an aftermarket oil filter relocation kit, we seemed to consider this mod a "must have" on most of our trucks. We'd mount the new oil filter bracket on the back of the radiator core support right next to the radiator where it was easy to get to. It worked like this: hot tranny fluid comes from the tranny and goes to the cooler on the radiator, it then exits the rad and goes back to the tranny on a stock setup.

The mod works like this: hot fluid comes from the tranny and goes to the new 1 Qt. filter (Fram PH-8A), then to the cooler in the radiator, then out to the auxilliary trans cooler, then back to the tranny.

With the new 1 Qt. filter, plus the aux. trans cooler, plus the extra lines, plus the deep trans pan, you should be looking at close to three extra Qts. of fluid for the transmission.

Three notes:
Buy a super strong "rare earth" magnet and stick it inside the trans pan close to the drain plug. (steel pan only) to grab any bits of metal inside there.

Try to steer clear of using rubber hose on all those trans cooler/filter connections. Try to use steel lines and get a bender to make smooth, kink-free radiuses, it's worth the extra $$ to invest in good fittings, I use brass NPT pipe fittings, some guys use pricey AN fittings, your choice.

A fan on the aux trans cooler with a temperature actuated on/off switch is a nice improvement too, but can be a bit costly.

As for the leaking levers, I've never worked on a 727 that had a leak from there that was worth mentioning (LOTS of 727s) but I'd wipe it all clean clean clean, and check it while idling in Park, with the parking brake set, and a chock set around a tire, (and a fat guy pressing on the brake pedal).

Let us know what you find.

[mineral co]

Thanks for the excellent info! That sounds like a very good plan. I went ahead and bought the pan and trans mount/torque arm mounts so that I can get on with resolving the immediate problem, and will start scrounging up parts for the remote filter and cooler. Surely I can find an appropriate magnet over the next fews days while waiting for the pan.

I really appreciate the feedback I've gotten on this board. Given enough time, I might well figure out some of this stuff on my own, but this has saved me so much time and trial and error. Thanks.

Chris

[mineral co]

I took the GW around the local "scenic loop" above town this afternoon to try to get a better feel for the vibration and steering issues. One thing I'm sure of is that there is play in the steering somewhere, even if I can't feel it when pushing and pulling on stuff.

More interesting, though, is the vibration. The frequency is fairly consistant, starts at an indicated 17 mph and is pretty much gone above 45 mph. And it is very obvious in the steering wheel. I have no doubt that the trans mount has got to go, but I'm not convinced that it is the source of the vibration.

It made me wonder if the front U-joints might also be shot, but I dismissed that fairly quickly thinking that the front driveshaft isn't turning in 2WD. Then I realized that I didn't actually know that for sure. Does the front shaft also rotate in 2WD? I've got the 229 TC. Also (since I'm reconsidering everything ), none of the vacuum lines to the front axle or TC are hooked up. Any chance that might cause any problems?

[jaber]

If you dont have locking hubs, then yes, everything up front turns. You can take the slugs out of the front hubs to see if you can track down the vibe. WARNING- do not engage 4 wheel drive with the slugs out.

[mineral co]

Hmm. I don't know what kind of hubs I've got. They're not manual, I know that much!

The front axle has the vacuum motor on it, and I've assumed that this merely disconnects the left axle shaft from the diff. Presumably, the right axle shaft is always turning and so would the diff. Whether or not the ring gear would turn would depend on the drag in the diff, but if the ring gear turns, so will the drive shaft. Have I got this right? Or, will the driveshaft turn as a result of the coupling in the TC? Or both?

I would be quite happy to know that the front driveshaft is spinning in 2WD. I'll have that out of there at first light tomorrow to check those u-joints!

[jaber]

Yes it does turn. Even the front shaft on my J-20 with the Dana 20 in it turns, just not as fast.
The silver caps pop into the end of the hub, under that there is a large gear that ties the hub to the axle. Yes, you have the vac motor correct, but yes, everything still turns.

[mineral co]

I guess I have to clarify a bit about the front driveshaft. It can turn, but it is not "driven".

I did go out while it was still cold this morning a pull out the front driveshaft. The u-joints all felt smooth and had uniform resistance across the swing arc. None have any detectable play. A drive with the driveshaft out confirmed that it wasn't the problem.

While scraping crud off the trans and mount, I noticed that there is an exhaust hanger on the right side of the mount bracket, but the exhaust pipe was sitting on the cross-member, unattached. Loosening the header bolts and jacking up the exhaust got that all taken care of, and there may be a slight improvement in the vibration and noise. The rear of the exhaust had found its way over to the right-rear spring set and was rubbing, so I moved that around so that it cannot repeat this stunt. Again, perhaps a slight improvement, but no resolution.

I can feel this vibration in the steering wheel, as well as in my feet, and it's rather pronounced. It is vehicle speed dependant (not engine speed) and does it when coasting , slowing, or accelerating but is somewhat more pronounced when accelerating. If I hadn't already changed them, I would swear it was a driveshaft u-joint problem! Swerving from side-to-side has no effect, nor does braking at any amount.

I still have the collapsed trans mount to acquire and replace, but I just can't see that being the source of the problem. I can see it transmitting an existing vibration, but not causing one.

There is one other thing I did at the same time as the lift. Because I had to replace the parking brake cables, I disassembled the rear brakes completely. This seemed like the right time to go ahead and replace the wheel cylinders too. I haven't done drum brakes since 1976! I took several photos and believe I got the brakes put back together correctly, but is there a way that those brakes might oscillate or chatter and cause this type of problem? I had put my hand on each of the hubs after the last drive to check the temp, but this was before this thought occurred to me. The rear hubs were cool, the front hubs were warm.

I'm trying to think of ways to eliminate logical sections a group at a time, and I'm open to ideas!

[mineral co]

I eliminated the rear brakes as a problem. They're not.

I ordered a new poly trans mount and replaced the oozing rubber one in the truck. It made the problem SO much worse! The whole truck felt like it was coming apart. I also replaced the rag joint in the steering since it had been wet for quite some time.

While working on the rag joint, I was it the right position to see the driver's side motor mount, and something was not right! The engine mount horn is folded up on the bottom edge, and the top edge of the motor mount is folded over as well, but the mount had been installed with it's fold also on the bottom so both pieces of metal were in contact with each other. I thought ah-hah! I got you now, you SOB!

I spun the mount around by 180 degrees, only to be very disappointed again. No improvement what-so-ever (but the metal plate was nicely polished with all the abrasion on the horn). After rotating the mount, it was also clear it was tearing, so I got two new rubber motor mounts and a new rubber trans mount and put them in today. At least I'm back to where I was before putting in the polyurethane trans mount. The vibration is still there, but at least the truck doesn't feel like its coming apart.

I went ahead and had the new BFG AT/TA tires installed while I was in the valley and, at least , the truck sure looks good even if it is unpleasant to drive!

Just for good measure, I also rotated the tail shaft of the TC by 180 degrees relative to the driveshaft and then rotated the driveshaft relative to the pinion by 180 degrees just to see if it made any difference. It did not.

So, here's where I'm at with this. The BDS rear springs have a tapered shim at the bottom of the leaf pack. I have no idea how many degrees it is, but it does tilt the pinion up by some amount. By looking at the front and rear u-joints in the driveshaft, I can see that they are not at the same angle. I know U-joint angles are a big topic with lifted vehicles, but I have zero experience with such things and have no way to gauge whether the difference between the two is sufficient to cause the vibration I'm experiencing. I've tried to eliminate every other possible cause of this vibration, with no success, and, at this point, don't know what else to go look for. I have no choice but to start looking hard at the pinion angle.

What is an acceptable difference in angle before you start to notice problems? I have a magnetic protractor so I should be able to get the tail-shaft angle, the pinion angle, as well as the driveshaft angle if I pull the driveshaft again. I really don't want to pull the rear spring packs apart to remove/replace those tapered shims, but if there is a good chance that is where the problem is then I'll do it. Have other folks seen these tapered shims in their spring lifts?

Thanks for all help,

Chris

[jaber]

Your rear diff should have the same angle as the t-case. Put your magnetic angle finder on the t-case out put, then on your rear axle. They should not be more then 1-2* difference. The closer to the same, the smoother they run and the joints last longer.