New Alternator Suggestions

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Renodemona
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New Alternator Suggestions

Post by Renodemona » Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:55 pm

Susan's alternator finally died, looking to see what people have put in their rigs. Would like an upgrade, but don't want to have to do a lot of modifications to the bracket to do it. Also, who needs an alternator? Free. ;)
"Wait, what's on fire!?" KJ7TCT
--------------------------------------------------------------
1976 Cherokee w/t 'Susan' 401/TH400/QT(PT)
FiTech Go EFI, Edelbrock Performer intake
3" Rough Country Springs, HEI Dizzy
-------------------------------------------------------------
2018 Cherokee Trailhawk V6 'Sedna'

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Tatsadasayago
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Re: New Alternator Suggestions

Post by Tatsadasayago » Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:41 pm

Sorry for your loss RD.

I've done a few Delco conversions and they worked out very well but the bracketry carnage was immense.

Almost all alternators use a pivot and adjuster setup for mounting and both the ones Jeep used and the Delco are similar. The problems begin with the cast aluminum bracket and move on to fore and aft positioning so the belt(s) line up. Then there is the issue of the belt(s) themselves.

I have kept my stock setup on this jeep because the memory of the last conversion I did, while the details remain vague, the memory of the frustration and anger remain for some reason. If you can source a NEW replacement alternator, you will likely get many years of service out of it. A reman...probably not-so-much, but the repair will be fairly swift and frustration-free in comparison.

Just my .02 centavos on the subject.
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Tatsadasayago
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Re: New Alternator Suggestions

Post by Tatsadasayago » Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:42 pm

Tatsadasayago wrote:Sorry for your loss RD.

I've done a few Delco conversions and they worked out very well but the bracketry carnage was immense.

Almost all alternators use a pivot and adjuster setup for mounting and both the ones Jeep used and the Delco are similar. The problems begin with the cast aluminum bracket and move on to fore and aft positioning so the belt(s) line up. Then there is the issue of the belt(s) themselves.

I have kept my stock setup on this jeep because the memory of the last conversion I did, while the details remain vague, the memory of the frustration and anger linger years later for some reason. If you can source a NEW replacement alternator, you will likely get many years of service out of it. A reman...probably not-so-much, but the repair will be fairly swift and frustration-free in comparison.

Just my .02 centavos on the subject.
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Dusty
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Re: New Alternator Suggestions

Post by Dusty » Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:58 pm

I did the Ford 3G 150A in my waggy.

It's been pretty good. I had one bad one, but my second is fine. Belt tension is very important on them.
I was able to use all of my factory hardware without any bracket modifying. Also they are One Wire hook up.
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Renodemona
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Re: New Alternator Suggestions

Post by Renodemona » Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:08 am

Is the wiring to go from external regulator to internal pretty easy? It looks like all the factory wiring is there, just really really really ratty looking. If it is pretty easy then I have a lot more options. If not, all I am able to locate locally is reman-ed. Which isn't a HUGE deal, but new and more amps is better if I don't need an advanced degree to get it in there.
"Wait, what's on fire!?" KJ7TCT
--------------------------------------------------------------
1976 Cherokee w/t 'Susan' 401/TH400/QT(PT)
FiTech Go EFI, Edelbrock Performer intake
3" Rough Country Springs, HEI Dizzy
-------------------------------------------------------------
2018 Cherokee Trailhawk V6 'Sedna'

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tgreese
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Re: New Alternator Suggestions

Post by tgreese » Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:58 am

In 1976, the six-cylinder models used the 10SI Delco alternator instead of the Motorcraft alternator in the V8s. Look at the wiring diagram, and you'll see two alternators. If it were mine, I would follow the factory wiring diagram for the 10SI, and install the 10SI alternator.
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Re: New Alternator Suggestions

Post by jaber » Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:30 am

If you do decide to upgrade to a larger alt, be sure to do the amp meter mod so you dont have a dash fire. ;)
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Re: New Alternator Suggestions

Post by rlars7 » Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:50 am

jaber wrote:If you do decide to upgrade to a larger alt, be sure to do the amp meter mod so you dont have a dash fire. ;)
Second on this. Upping the power though 30+ year old wiring requires a little more work than simply swapping IMHO. If I can do it, you should have no problem!
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Renodemona
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Re: New Alternator Suggestions

Post by Renodemona » Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:38 pm

:idea:
Began the uninstall today. As I started to take the wires off the back, I noticed a broken clip hanging from the loom. The broken clip matched some broken clip remnants attached to the ground terminal. Sure enough, at some point the ground connector broke off. Of course I was only able to make the discovery after removing the alternator so I could inspect it...

So Guess I'll return the re-manufactured one I bought on the way home, make a new connector for the ground, and put it all back together. Fun?

Thanks for all the suggestions! Got me thinking about what I would like to do down the road at least.
"Wait, what's on fire!?" KJ7TCT
--------------------------------------------------------------
1976 Cherokee w/t 'Susan' 401/TH400/QT(PT)
FiTech Go EFI, Edelbrock Performer intake
3" Rough Country Springs, HEI Dizzy
-------------------------------------------------------------
2018 Cherokee Trailhawk V6 'Sedna'

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Re: New Alternator Suggestions

Post by sgtpoliteness » Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:12 pm

tgreese wrote:In 1976, the six-cylinder models used the 10SI Delco alternator instead of the Motorcraft alternator in the V8s. Look at the wiring diagram, and you'll see two alternators. If it were mine, I would follow the factory wiring diagram for the 10SI, and install the 10SI alternator.
I recently discovered a PO did this to my Cherokee after I cleaned up a ton of wiring from my FI install. Looking at the diagram, I was like, 'This doesn't make any sense' until I checked out the 6 cylinder diagram. There were some shi**y connections and solder work before I cleaned it up. Even with that I was still charging ok in the winter with the headlights on, fan on full and wipers going in the snow.
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Re: New Alternator Suggestions

Post by serehill » Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:37 am

Renodemona wrote::idea:
Began the uninstall today. As I started to take the wires off the back, I noticed a broken clip hanging from the loom. The broken clip matched some broken clip remnants attached to the ground terminal. Sure enough, at some point the ground connector broke off. Of course I was only able to make the discovery after removing the alternator so I could inspect it...

So Guess I'll return the re-manufactured one I bought on the way home, make a new connector for the ground, and put it all back together. Fun?

Thanks for all the suggestions! Got me thinking about what I would like to do down the road at least.
I would take it & have it tested you may not be out of the woods just yet.
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The PIG Smith
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Re: New Alternator Suggestions

Post by The PIG Smith » Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:37 pm

Cut and Pasted from this posting:
http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=117604

This what I did on my J10 project....piece of cake! One Banana Job!

#############################################################

Image

Image
Front View

Image
Back View

Parts needed:

* Bracket (the part shown above)
Though many have had success modifying the stock SI-10/SI-12, but they have limited belt adjustment range, and the stock bracket may hit/rub interfere with the oil pump housing. YMMV

* CS-144:
1996 Cadillac Deville 4.6L 1994-1997 (Without Heated Windshield defroster)
Cadillac Deville Concours 4.6L 1994-1997 Cadillac Eldorado 4.6L 1993 Cadillac
Eldorado Sport Coupe 4.6L 1994-1997 Cadillac Seville SLS 4.6L 1993-1997 Cadillac Seville STS 4.6L

Is the easiest to use for clocking/mounting, other version can be run but might
require some messing around (re clocking, adding threaded insert in the tension
ear ...)

* Belts: (With AC, I don't have a non-AC rig to test on, but likely hair longer than stock, should work)
Stock are a little on the short side Gates 7516/Napa NBH 257516, work well with this bracket.
Matched sets seem to be a thing of the past, so compare them, match lot numbers, in a pinch measure them and go though the parts store inventory to find the best possable match.

* Harness adapter:
NAPA ECH82 (Summit, Delco .. also sell these) adapts your current alternator harness plug (All FSJ's with Delco alt. , all after ~1977ish) to the CS-144, and has a in-line resistor)

* Tension bolt:
10mm-1.50 flange or washer bolt.

Installation and wiring:
There are many threads (sorry if I missed one or two) do a search, know your goals and keep it simple.

General theory of operation (Know what you are doing, read this)

http://oljeep.com/AltTheory17/Alternato ... on17R1.htm

Serpentine belt pulley removal from the CS144:

http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthre ... 144+pulley

General mounting (OEM Delco SI-12/SI-10 rigs)
Check the pulley alignment, you may need to add a washer or to to the long tube spacer, some need to be shimmed out a hair some don't.

The CS-144 is going to be more picky with loose or glazed belts, it can require as much as 2X the torque to turn at full load vs. the smaller alt. at the same RPM. ( 140 amps requires ~twice the torque/belt load vs. 70amps, at any given RPM)

Wiring:
In general: Do not expect your current output wire to handle the 140 amps a CS-144 can output, without creating a fire hazard. A larger gauge wire directly back to the battery, is pretty much mandatory. (fuse or fusible link in this wire is highly recommended)

If you jump start someone, the CS144, will attempt to provide full current (140 amps if at high idle) to your battery connection, you do not want a small gauge wire trying to carry this current back to your battery, (GM used a 6ga wire for the output, many have gone larger 4+ga. )


There is a couple diagrams in this thread, on possible way's to power the current fuse box, http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthre ... ight=CS144
I think most users use the current 10ga Yellow (has a fusible link) as the feed, some use the Red old alt output line (now unused but still hot)(you would need to add a fusible link as there is none, if you use the Red), either is fine IMHO, I would not use both, and using both would IMHO create a hazard, due to the added short circuit current from two parallel fusible links. If you use the Yellow feed, be sure to isolate and secure or eliminate the unused old output wire it is still going to be hot, and could make a mess if left floating around waiting to short out, similar note for the Yellow if you use the Red wire.

The large alt is not to feed more power to your current system, it is there to handle non-stock loads, (Winch, Plow pumps, jump-starting, ghetto-blaster sound systems, electric fans, off road lights ....) as such place you new loads on the output of the alt, do not hang large non-stock loads off you current fuse panel.

Since the stock ammeter is of no use, here is a neat solution to add a volt meter in it's place:
http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showt...ight=voltmeter

Wiring Diagrams for many FSJ's are here
http://oljeep.com/gw/elec/GW_wiring.html

I am sure I am forgetting missing some good threads on converting to a CS-144.

Mike D.
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Renodemona
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Re: New Alternator Suggestions

Post by Renodemona » Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:58 pm

Did have the old one tested and it was bad anyway. Oh well. Got a replacement in and everything appears just fine. Got a little late to finish up the final wiring so I'll wait for daylight to call it "done" just yet. Very good info on the CS144 conversion, it looks very cool.
"Wait, what's on fire!?" KJ7TCT
--------------------------------------------------------------
1976 Cherokee w/t 'Susan' 401/TH400/QT(PT)
FiTech Go EFI, Edelbrock Performer intake
3" Rough Country Springs, HEI Dizzy
-------------------------------------------------------------
2018 Cherokee Trailhawk V6 'Sedna'

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Renodemona
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Re: New Alternator Suggestions

Post by Renodemona » Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:32 pm

Finished the wiring and can't get her to re-fire. If the voltage regulator is bad, would this possibly stop me from getting juice?
"Wait, what's on fire!?" KJ7TCT
--------------------------------------------------------------
1976 Cherokee w/t 'Susan' 401/TH400/QT(PT)
FiTech Go EFI, Edelbrock Performer intake
3" Rough Country Springs, HEI Dizzy
-------------------------------------------------------------
2018 Cherokee Trailhawk V6 'Sedna'

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Tatsadasayago
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Re: New Alternator Suggestions

Post by Tatsadasayago » Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:20 pm

Renodemona wrote:Finished the wiring and can't get her to re-fire. If the voltage regulator is bad, would this possibly stop me from getting juice?
If the VREG is bad you should still have power, just no charging. Sounds like you opened the main power feed. Do you have power elsewhere or does it stop at the starter solenoid?

Here's a color coded wiring schematic I made up for the 74 model.
Image

Grey, green and black wires go from the plug at the alternator to the Voltage Regulator.
The larger red wire runs to the insulated lug on the alt usually labeled OP, ALT, BAT or +
The blue wire runs from the solenoid to the ignition switch for start engagement.
The yellow wire runs from the same lug on the solenoid as the red w/white tracer wire which goes to the + side of the ignition coil. The yellow wire runs to the VREG plug.
The larger yellow wire #55 (Not colored in my schematic) runs from the battery lug on the solenoid to the ammeter in the dash.

There's all the wiring info you should need.
Check your fusible link for failure. It will either have open burned insulation OR the wire burns in half and you can stretch it. Mine is located right at the solenoid, but don't think it's OEM.

Hope that helps!

Jim
1977 Cherokee Chief - The Blair Jeep Project III
A collection of parts flying in close formation

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Renodemona
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Re: New Alternator Suggestions

Post by Renodemona » Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:21 pm

Got running. Forgot to plug the ignition power in. Doh. However Now there is this gawd aweful racket coming from what sounds like the rear bottom of the engine. It's definately not squeaky belts. It sounds too loud to be something isolated to the alternator as well. I do seem to be getting a good charge and it has no problem starting/running. I made a video!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlv5-5q ... e=youtu.be
"Wait, what's on fire!?" KJ7TCT
--------------------------------------------------------------
1976 Cherokee w/t 'Susan' 401/TH400/QT(PT)
FiTech Go EFI, Edelbrock Performer intake
3" Rough Country Springs, HEI Dizzy
-------------------------------------------------------------
2018 Cherokee Trailhawk V6 'Sedna'

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Tatsadasayago
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Re: New Alternator Suggestions

Post by Tatsadasayago » Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:46 pm

[EDIT] The VERY first thing you should check is the heat riser! It's located on the passenger side exhaust manifold at the exit flange. If the spring has broken the butterfly plate will flop around causing that kind of sound. If the counterweight is still there you should be able to see it rotating in time with that funky noise. If keeping it stationary with a pair of pliers stops the noise, yer golden!
I keyed in on the riser because the overall sound changed as your camera turn the corner and passed over the fenderwell, losing alot of the lower frequency notes. My instincts say the sound is coming from the rear of the engine down low...you know, like where that heat riser is :)
If not then:

I've that sound before...
Did you have the air cleaner off for any reason recently?
A saboteur placed a handful of 1/4" nuts, washers and bolts on the throttle plates of my race car to prevent me from competing in the finals. All was well until the first burnout when I opened the throttle alot.
The sound was just like that and would vary exactly like yours did at :45 in the video. I found some of the nuts and bolts still in the carb, some in the intake runners and of course in 3 chambers.

In your video I heard four things that immediately got my attention:

First: Ignition timing too far advanced -- causing that bit of humping up as you fired the engine.
Second: That high frequency hiss -- sounds like a fairly large vacuum leak at the base of the TB.
Third: Many clattering rocker arms -- worn rockers and bridges, worn out lifters or dangerous low oil pressure. It's hard to tell, but I swear I hear one or three rockers that are much much louder than the others which are just clicking.
Fourth: That variable rattling knock is happening at the same frequency as the RPM of the crankshaft. Sure sounds like something is bouncing around on top of the piston in the #6 or #8 hole.

I wouldn't run it any more until you find the problem though.

I would suggest:

Check the oil level and color. Got any chocolate milk, silver or copper looking micro-metal flake in it?
Take a short listen to the area where the sound seems to be coming from using a mechanic's stethescope, long rod, pipe or tubing (Pressed to your closed ear flap thing) and move the far end around to determine which cylinder the sound is loudest. When you locate the source area, zero in on the area more precisely by moving from the intake runner over the head and down to the exhaust manifold. If it's still indistinct, try the oil pan and bell housing.
Pull the valve covers and check for a bent push-rod, broken rocker bridge or cracked rocker arm. Check the amount of wear on the rockers and bridges while you are there.

If nothing presents itself so far...looks like you may have to open her up.

Let us know what you find!

Jim
1977 Cherokee Chief - The Blair Jeep Project III
A collection of parts flying in close formation

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Lumpskie
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Re: New Alternator Suggestions

Post by Lumpskie » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:31 am

^Wow, talk about a thorough diagnosis from a 1 minute youtube video! This site continues to impress me.
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