Will's $600 Grand Wagoneer (440 Mopar Swap)

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WT91
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Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Will's $600 Grand Wagoneer (440 Mopar Swap)

Post by WT91 »

There havent been many worth while updates so far. Nothing useful to take pictures of. We finished most of the body work/fabrication stuff. We are officially at the point in the process where more parts are getting put back on than are getting taken off. We hope to fire the engine up for the first time next saturday.

In the meantime, pics:

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  • 1990 Grand Wagoneer
    440 swap, 727 MVB, NP208, D44 F/R 4.10 gears ZIP locker up front Detroit out back. So much other stuff. Check out the build.
  • 1994 Ford F350 Crew Cab Dually
    7.3 PS, ZF5, 6.0 Intercooler, KC Turbo

Topic author
WT91
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Will's $600 Grand Wagoneer (440 Mopar Swap)

Post by WT91 »

https://youtu.be/3xQqXqofBXY

440 Wag Test Run. Almost done :D
  • 1990 Grand Wagoneer
    440 swap, 727 MVB, NP208, D44 F/R 4.10 gears ZIP locker up front Detroit out back. So much other stuff. Check out the build.
  • 1994 Ford F350 Crew Cab Dually
    7.3 PS, ZF5, 6.0 Intercooler, KC Turbo
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Tatsadasayago
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Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: Will's $600 Grand Wagoneer (440 Mopar Swap)

Post by Tatsadasayago »

Nice!
Almost time to shred transfer case chains and ring & pinions. :)
1977 Cherokee Chief - The Blair Jeep Project III
A collection of parts flying in close formation

Topic author
WT91
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Will's $600 Grand Wagoneer (440 Mopar Swap)

Post by WT91 »

I have a 208 on standby waiting for me. I don't think I'll be shredding pinions...man I hope not.
  • 1990 Grand Wagoneer
    440 swap, 727 MVB, NP208, D44 F/R 4.10 gears ZIP locker up front Detroit out back. So much other stuff. Check out the build.
  • 1994 Ford F350 Crew Cab Dually
    7.3 PS, ZF5, 6.0 Intercooler, KC Turbo
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Tatsadasayago
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Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2014 2:22 pm
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: Will's $600 Grand Wagoneer (440 Mopar Swap)

Post by Tatsadasayago »

I hope you kept the original valves!
The 440 Industrials used in the motorhomes had sodium filled exhaust valves, the best cranks and straightest high nickel content blocks. AAQA casting marks are the indicator for the blocks.
1977 Cherokee Chief - The Blair Jeep Project III
A collection of parts flying in close formation

Topic author
WT91
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Will's $600 Grand Wagoneer (440 Mopar Swap)

Post by WT91 »

My engine block was a 440-5, which was a pretty plain jane truck block according to what I've read, but I could be mistaken. The Motorhome was a Dodge M50 chassis that was then sent to Champion Motorhomes to finish. I do have the forged crank and HD rods. The stock heads were cracked so a set of 452 heads were found and tossed on after some mild porting. They're the ones with the hardened valve seats for unleaded gas, which was a definite upgrade.

Should be driving once we're done building the exhaust on Monday. From there, we'll see what breaks and upgrade from there. Hopefully not everything aft of the engine.
  • 1990 Grand Wagoneer
    440 swap, 727 MVB, NP208, D44 F/R 4.10 gears ZIP locker up front Detroit out back. So much other stuff. Check out the build.
  • 1994 Ford F350 Crew Cab Dually
    7.3 PS, ZF5, 6.0 Intercooler, KC Turbo
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Tatsadasayago
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Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2014 2:22 pm
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: Will's $600 Grand Wagoneer (440 Mopar Swap)

Post by Tatsadasayago »

Ok.
Yes, the 452s were the standard go-to casting for the 440s in the later years. Still a good head and it sounds like you have your ducks in a row.
With those pistons, cam and intake, it ought to be a torque monster.
Yer a man after my own heart!
1977 Cherokee Chief - The Blair Jeep Project III
A collection of parts flying in close formation

Topic author
WT91
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Will's $600 Grand Wagoneer (440 Mopar Swap)

Post by WT91 »

Image

Image

Image
  • 1990 Grand Wagoneer
    440 swap, 727 MVB, NP208, D44 F/R 4.10 gears ZIP locker up front Detroit out back. So much other stuff. Check out the build.
  • 1994 Ford F350 Crew Cab Dually
    7.3 PS, ZF5, 6.0 Intercooler, KC Turbo

Marksman
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Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 11:56 am

Re: Will's $600 Grand Wagoneer (440 Mopar Swap)

Post by Marksman »

A friend of mine is going to buy an 86 on Saturday that doesn't have an engine. He does, however, have a 330HP 383 out of a Charger and a BB 727 case that will drop right in place of where the 360 used to be. Those motor mounts look simple enough to make. All in all, it seems like a fairly simple swap.

I've been into 727's quite a few times before so swapping everything wont be an issue. I really like your TBI setup, but wiring isn't my strongest point so it'll stay carbed at least for now.

Any more updates? Would love to see the finished product with it in action!

Topic author
WT91
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Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Will's $600 Grand Wagoneer (440 Mopar Swap)

Post by WT91 »

Sorry, been a while with no real updates. Took it from NJ to NC behind my f350 for a weekend shakedown run. Had lots of issues with fuel starvation under load. Thinking the TBI fuel pressure regulator is on its way out. Moving in a week, so haven't had much time to tinker. New place has a garage, so I'm sure I'll be wrenching on it before too long.

Honestly, in terms of engine swap difficulty, this was like a 3/10. Everything fit pretty well. Off the top of my head...

You need headers. The manifolds will hit the heater box, headers clear fine. I used: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hed-78070 They fit amazingly well. Could even use exhaust manifold studs if you wanted, no need to pull the stock studs to get the header on.

You need hydroboost. No way the vacuum booster will clear.

Going to need electric fans if you use stock transmission crossmember location.

Depending on year, the Mopar water pump housings exit on different sides. Mine was opposite the FSJ radiator, but you can get a water pump housing that exits on the appropriate side from Summit, Jegs, etc.

Probably going to want a remote mount oil filter. Mine was very close to castle nut on pitman arm, used relocation kit to get it away from there.

The AMC 727 shifter linkages won't work without some creativity. The bosses on the transmission the AMC shifters would bolt to/ride on aren't there on the mopar. Same for the AMC TV linkage. Lokar makes a TV linkage cable kit that works OK. For the actual shifter, you can get creative with a cable setup to keep the column shifter or you can knock out the roll pin remove the shifter handle and put a floor shifter in.
  • 1990 Grand Wagoneer
    440 swap, 727 MVB, NP208, D44 F/R 4.10 gears ZIP locker up front Detroit out back. So much other stuff. Check out the build.
  • 1994 Ford F350 Crew Cab Dually
    7.3 PS, ZF5, 6.0 Intercooler, KC Turbo

Nikkormat
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Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:45 pm
Location: Salt Lake City

Re: Will's $600 Grand Wagoneer (440 Mopar Swap)

Post by Nikkormat »

Alright listen here, it's been a month without an update. Are you just going to leave us hanging?
Gabe, "reformed" Jeep hoarder.

Topic author
WT91
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Will's $600 Grand Wagoneer (440 Mopar Swap)

Post by WT91 »

Nikkormat wrote:Alright listen here, it's been a month without an update. Are you just going to leave us hanging?
:-bd

Well since you asked...

Today was the first day since moving into our new place that I actually got to work on the Wag in my own garage. Drained all the fuel out of the stock wag coffin tank in preparation for dropping it. Going to be replacing the stock tank with a rear mounted S10 Blazer tank and in-tank pump. Been fighting fuel delivery issues with the TBI system randomly going super lean and the truck running poorly. My current frame rail pump is getting to the right PSI when I test it, but I don't think it is very happy. They like pushing fuel not sucking it, and right now my existing setup needs to suck the fuel up and out of the tank, then down the frame rail to the pump. New setup will be an OEM style in-tank pump, so there should be absolutely no problems there.

Also going to be rebuilding the TBI fuel pressure regulator just to be safe.

Hopefully I'll have something of note to report in a few weeks.
  • 1990 Grand Wagoneer
    440 swap, 727 MVB, NP208, D44 F/R 4.10 gears ZIP locker up front Detroit out back. So much other stuff. Check out the build.
  • 1994 Ford F350 Crew Cab Dually
    7.3 PS, ZF5, 6.0 Intercooler, KC Turbo

ShagWagon
Posts: 702
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:13 pm

Re: Will's $600 Grand Wagoneer (440 Mopar Swap)

Post by ShagWagon »

Gonna put a shaker hood or six pack hood or something?

Kinda went with the 440s and the really cool factor in the day...
87 Grand Wagoneer Rebuilt 360 by S&J, Fitech GO EFI 600, Novak in-tank fuel pump, Skyjacker Hydro 4" lift, BFG AT KO2 30", Dynamax Muffler, MSD distributor, MSD ignition, Edlebrock perf 4bbl intake, Elgin perf cam, Oil tube mod, Roller rockers, chrome molly lifters, HD alum radiator, Powermaster 150/100 alt, Alum HD water pump, Serhills tailgate harness, Cowl screen mod, Evil Twin grab handles, Rstep's custom AMC door lock knobs, all electrical works.

Topic author
WT91
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Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Will's $600 Grand Wagoneer (440 Mopar Swap)

Post by WT91 »

Small new year update. I installed a 93 S10 Blazer rear tank+fuel pump/sender. Rebuilt the TBI unit and made the fuel pressure regulator adjustable. Tore the whole front of the engine apart to install a new water pump housing that outputs on the correct side for the Wag radiator, getting rid of the sketch-tastic 4 foot long lower radiator hose. Did a lot of tinkering to try and solve my idling/power issues. Tomorrow going to be spending a good day in the garage with the timing light, fuel pressure gauge, and laptop to really tune it.
  • 1990 Grand Wagoneer
    440 swap, 727 MVB, NP208, D44 F/R 4.10 gears ZIP locker up front Detroit out back. So much other stuff. Check out the build.
  • 1994 Ford F350 Crew Cab Dually
    7.3 PS, ZF5, 6.0 Intercooler, KC Turbo

Topic author
WT91
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Will's $600 Grand Wagoneer (440 Mopar Swap)

Post by WT91 »

So, some more updates.

I've been fighting tuning issues with the TBI system on the 440 for a few months now. Issues that prevent me from even getting to the standard TBI "first step" tuning stuff. After completely going over the fueling system and nailing down some electrical gremlins, the truck was starting to run better and better each time I wrenched on it. What I couldn't get rid of this time was a ping/lack of power under load. I had tried removing spark, but it was getting to the point where I was crippling the engine's performance to try and eliminate the pinging. I sat down with a racecar buddy of mine and we did some math and realized that even if my engine is making a conservative 300 HP at the crank, the TBI unit injectors are far undersized. 148lb/hr total from the two 74lb/hr injectors running at 13 PSI. This proved to be a problem, as most people agree that the most adjustment you can get out of a stock TBI regulator is about 15 PSI and that isn't quite enough. So we went on a hunt to find a higher PSI spring for the TBI regulator to get us closer to 200~210 lb/hr. After checking the local junkyards for a 94-95 BBC TBI truck or a 95+ TBI van and coming up dry, I found a guy on Amazon who sells TBI parts and has the springs in stock. Hamilton Fuel Injection also stocks different PSI springs. I ordered a 28 PSI '95 model year style spring for my early 90's 454 TBI. While that was shipping I also ordered an adapter for the TBI fuel fittings to get a fuel pressure gauge on the input line for easy tuning.

For anyone who finds this thread, I also have some advice about the rear fuel tank. The 93 blazer tank worked great, my #1 suggestion is to get the higher PSI fuel pump. I didn't, I got the TBI pump which maxes out at 15 PSI. Luckily it is really easy to swap in the CPI pump which supports 60~ PSI and it's not expensive. Save yourself the time, get the 60 PSI pump off the bat.

Anyway, fast forward to this week and the new higher pressure spring was in the TBI unit and now we are pulling a solid 32 PSI of fuel pressure :shock: That was a little more than I anticipated, but so long as it is steady and your math is good for the new injector constant the 7427 PCM seems to be dealing with the extra fuel just fine.

Now I was fighting the same problem with different causes, I still had no power/bogging but it was because we had enough fuel and no spark from messing around with the lower PSI. So I said screw it, blanked out the spark tables, and started over. I disabled everything in the .bin file that would play around with the spark curve and got to work.

This is the spark graph for a stock 454 .BIN file:

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It doesn't look very pretty, does it? My 440 did not like this timing table one bit, so I zeroed it all out and started off with a very basic "mechanical" style timing curve. I am very new to the RB mopar crowd, so I had to do some googling to figure out what your average 440 likes in terms of timing. The general consensus was 16* initial with 36* of total advance all in by around 3000 RPM. I would later learn that this didn't entirely apply to my build, but I am new at this. This is what Version 1 looked like, very simple right?

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That doesn't look too bad, and the truck would sort of run with this. From here, I selected the whole table and would add/subtract to all of the values at once to represent advancing/retarding a distributor. I got to the point where the truck would fire up real nice and pulled steady 23 inhg of vacuum. 22* of initial timing seems to be where it is happiest. Once I got that, I started playing with when peak spark came into play. My engine's cam tops out at 4500 RPM and makes peak power off idle and to about 2000 RPM. I accelerated the timing curve so peak spark was achieved by 2500 RPM and increased total spark from 36* to 40* at peak. Now we are getting somewhere! The engine really liked this, and for the first time I could lay on it down the street and have it take off like I felt it should. There was some minimal hesitation, but overall it was a huge improvement over previous attempts. I sat back down at the computer and added some "vacuum advance" to the finalized "mechanical" timing curve, and then smoothed everything over with Tunerpro's smooth tool. I ended up with this:

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You can see that at WOT the timing curve looks exactly like the mechanical curve V1, thats because a normal distributor vacuum advance is doing nothing at WOT and you are relying on the mechanical advance for all the oompf. The engine *really* likes this timing curve. There is still a very slight hesitation, but I think that can be solved with a little more advance across the entire table. There is no sign of the pinging I was suffering from earlier.

At this point, I think I have the timing pretty dialed in and I am getting ready to move into the VE tuning via datalogging and watching the BLM's. From my preliminary datalogs, most of my BLMs are in the 110-120 area so the engine is running slightly rich but that isn't terribly far off from the "Ideal" 128.

Now I need to really nail down two final issues for this project. First, my transmission TV cable is getting on my last nerve. I can never seem to get it adjusted properly/keep it adjusted. The truck sometimes starts off in second gear, sometimes does't want to manually downshift to first, sometimes does't want to go into third. I am willing to say that my frankentrans handiwork could be the culprit but playing with the TV cable typically results in good shifts...temporarily. Not sure what I'm going to do there, I am tempted to rip the TV cable out and install a manual valve body. I drive a 5 speed F350 every day, a "semi-auto" Wagoneer would be cake comparatively. Issue #2 is a bouncing volt gauge. The interior lights/volt gauge bounce wildly at anything under 1k RPM. I've checked the grounds on the voltage regulator and everything there seems fine. I have to do some more digging on the mopar forums, but if any electrical gurus here have any ideas I am all ears.
  • 1990 Grand Wagoneer
    440 swap, 727 MVB, NP208, D44 F/R 4.10 gears ZIP locker up front Detroit out back. So much other stuff. Check out the build.
  • 1994 Ford F350 Crew Cab Dually
    7.3 PS, ZF5, 6.0 Intercooler, KC Turbo

Topic author
WT91
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Will's $600 Grand Wagoneer (440 Mopar Swap)

Post by WT91 »

So...after some more tuning and solving little non-engine issues today (alternator was bouncing around), I can confidently say that the Wagoneer's running and driving issues with the TBI system are solved.
  • 1990 Grand Wagoneer
    440 swap, 727 MVB, NP208, D44 F/R 4.10 gears ZIP locker up front Detroit out back. So much other stuff. Check out the build.
  • 1994 Ford F350 Crew Cab Dually
    7.3 PS, ZF5, 6.0 Intercooler, KC Turbo

Topic author
WT91
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Will's $600 Grand Wagoneer (440 Mopar Swap)

Post by WT91 »

So its been a while since I had anything to update. We took the Jeep out for the MAFSJC's annual Snowball Fun Run. We had some running issues, but all in all it was a good day of wheeling. Apparently the nut behind the wheel forgot to tighten the bolt for the distributor hold down, which was causing some havoc later in the day. But up until the timing started moving around on its own we were powering right up hills and general performing well. We were running so well, in fact, we managed to completely mangle a shock on a black trail. Stupid log.

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I've decided to spend the $$$ and get myself a wideband O2 setup to help tune the TBI system better. I decided on the Innovate MTX-L, and it is a high quality setup. I don't have it operational yet as we are doing some interior renovations. Way back when I was first figuring out my TBI setup I decided on a bluetooth ALDL interface so I could read data and datalog using an Android device, like my cell phone. I have an older Samsung Galaxy Tab 2 that has been lying around, and my jeep currently has no radio installed. We are going to install the Galaxy Tab and use it to feed a small Kicker amp to drive the speakers, providing the Jeep with a media center/GPS/onboard diagnostics system right in the dash.

This is a very rough idea of what it would look like that I made out of some ply in about 5 seconds. We aren't sure if we like it this way, or if we want to mount the tablet where the radio would've been and put the gauges on the A pillar.

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To wrap up the interior mods, my wife is making all new interior panels out of birch ply. I don't have the attention to detail to make them come out anywhere near decent, so she has taken on the task for me. My current panels are falling apart, so anything will be a huge improvement. I hope to update with pictures for the Tablet dash project and the interior panels after the weekend.
  • 1990 Grand Wagoneer
    440 swap, 727 MVB, NP208, D44 F/R 4.10 gears ZIP locker up front Detroit out back. So much other stuff. Check out the build.
  • 1994 Ford F350 Crew Cab Dually
    7.3 PS, ZF5, 6.0 Intercooler, KC Turbo

twisted frame
Posts: 637
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:41 am
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Will's $600 Grand Wagoneer (440 Mopar Swap)

Post by twisted frame »

Cool to see your progress and that you're out enjoying the truck with the new engine! Birch panels sound nice.
73 J4000. 360, MC 2100, T18A, D20, stock closed knuckle Dana 44 front, 60-2 rear. Warn Lock-O-Matics, Warn/Belleview electric winch, true duals with glasspacks, old-school front diff skid plate, used 265 Toyos on 16" AR wheels.
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HowardT64
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Location: Athens,Texas

Re: Will's $600 Grand Wagoneer (440 Mopar Swap)

Post by HowardT64 »

Nice work :) I am envious of you fellas with a shop to do stuff like this....:)
2016 Jeep Patriot
"Faith"

Topic author
WT91
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Will's $600 Grand Wagoneer (440 Mopar Swap)

Post by WT91 »

I just got a garage when we got our house 4 months ago, 98% of what has been done to my truck was done outside in the dirt. The motor swap was done in my buddies shop, but that was a small fraction of it all. My garage is just big enough to fit Wag and have walking space on either side.

So today's update. It was rainy so we fired up the Wag and backed it out so we could work on the door panels. My original hard board panels were soft and mildewed from 30 years of leaky jeep syndrome. We used the passenger side panel as a template and traced out the panels on some light birch ply. After confirming everything fit, we traced out one for driver side and cut out a second. We sanded everything down with 100 grit and then 220 before hitting it with some pre-stain treatment. After 15 minutes we hit the panels with some red mahogany stain to give them some color. The wife was in charge of picking colors and making sure it actually looked decent, you can see her sanding below. After 15 minutes we wiped off excess stain and are now letting them dry for a few hours before sanding and staining the reverse sides. Once both sides are stained and sanded we will seal them up with some satin Spar Urethane. I have to say I am a terrible carpenter so these panels have so far been pretty good. We will see how they look when they're done.

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  • 1990 Grand Wagoneer
    440 swap, 727 MVB, NP208, D44 F/R 4.10 gears ZIP locker up front Detroit out back. So much other stuff. Check out the build.
  • 1994 Ford F350 Crew Cab Dually
    7.3 PS, ZF5, 6.0 Intercooler, KC Turbo
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